Author Topic: Why is Stone Pact the only Outlander health regen skill?  (Read 6735 times)

xpoferens

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Why is Stone Pact the only Outlander health regen skill?
« on: April 22, 2013, 11:49:09 PM »
Just curious.

Again, I haven't poured through pages to see what the common ways to address this are, outside of having proper gear and socketables.

As it stands, it seems like Outlander is in dire need of some other means for healing, particularly in consideration of Berzerker's ability to heal on crit, and Engineer's heal bot.

Forgive me if I'm forgetting something completely obvious in the skill tree.

Dongaldo

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Re: Why is Stone Pact the only Outlander health regen skill?
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2013, 03:27:57 AM »
A ran into this issue with my outlander. Stone Pact and %life steal helped. Loads of kiting and lots of potion drinking.

Craftea

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Re: Why is Stone Pact the only Outlander health regen skill?
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2013, 08:09:15 AM »
The Embermage has no healing skill.

The only reason why Engineer and Berserker are more "heal-heavy" than the Outlander (and Embermage) is because those two classes were designed as melee classes.

Thus, they require the extra survivability that healing gives them.

The Outlander can rely on kiting with Cursed Daggers, Rune Vault etc. while dealing damage with VH/CB/SS or glaives.

There's no rule which declares that all classes must have a healing spell.

QuestionSign

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Re: Why is Stone Pact the only Outlander health regen skill?
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2013, 10:42:44 AM »
The Embermage has no healing skill.

The only reason why Engineer and Berserker are more "heal-heavy" than the Outlander (and Embermage) is because those two classes were designed as melee classes.

Thus, they require the extra survivability that healing gives them.

The Outlander can rely on kiting with Cursed Daggers, Rune Vault etc. while dealing damage with VH/CB/SS or glaives.

There's no rule which declares that all classes must have a healing spell.


this is incorrect

xpoferens

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Re: Why is Stone Pact the only Outlander health regen skill?
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2013, 12:48:26 PM »
Kiting and potions doesn't strike me as particularly engaging method of play, but perhaps that's what is intended, particularly while any sort of life on hit ability comes in small quantities (skulls or embers, or other gear specific slots like those 5 socket gloves which drain life).

If potion use is considered viable for Outlander endgame, perhaps potion efficacy could also reduce potion cooldown time?

Craftea

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Re: Why is Stone Pact the only Outlander health regen skill?
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2013, 06:47:31 AM »
this is incorrect

Be more specific.

Kiting and potions doesn't strike me as particularly engaging method of play, but perhaps that's what is intended, particularly while any sort of life on hit ability comes in small quantities (skulls or embers, or other gear specific slots like those 5 socket gloves which drain life).

If potion use is considered viable for Outlander endgame, perhaps potion efficacy could also reduce potion cooldown time?

You'd definitely need to rely on potions sometimes, although with a decent build, you should be able to clear most mobs quickly and efficiently.

Life steal generally sucks, simply because very few skills proc it in the first place.

The Outlander mainly survives by attacking from range (CB/SS for enemies on the same elevation and in line of sight, VH for everything else) and kiting (RV, Daggers).

(Shottie Outlanders have the option of blind/knockback/stun everything, and Glacier Spike Spell Trigger Outlanders have Immobilize to fall back on.)

mantle

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Re: Why is Stone Pact the only Outlander health regen skill?
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2013, 12:30:23 PM »
Quote
Be more specific.
death bounty.

QuestionSign

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Re: Why is Stone Pact the only Outlander health regen skill?
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2013, 01:04:40 PM »
this is incorrect

Be more specific.

Kiting and potions doesn't strike me as particularly engaging method of play, but perhaps that's what is intended, particularly while any sort of life on hit ability comes in small quantities (skulls or embers, or other gear specific slots like those 5 socket gloves which drain life).

If potion use is considered viable for Outlander endgame, perhaps potion efficacy could also reduce potion cooldown time?

You'd definitely need to rely on potions sometimes, although with a decent build, you should be able to clear most mobs quickly and efficiently.

Life steal generally sucks, simply because very few skills proc it in the first place.

The Outlander mainly survives by attacking from range (CB/SS for enemies on the same elevation and in line of sight, VH for everything else) and kiting (RV, Daggers).

(Shottie Outlanders have the option of blind/knockback/stun everything, and Glacier Spike Spell Trigger Outlanders have Immobilize to fall back on.)

death bounty, plus it debuffs mobs for increased damage. It's a pretty awesome skill.

BlooDLotuS

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Re: Why is Stone Pact the only Outlander health regen skill?
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2013, 05:22:19 PM »
I too feel that the OTLR and EMBM have too few skills that aid protection, healing or general survivability, particularly if you play hardcore...

*** = awesome
** = good
* = decent

ENGR
25% all resists***
Heal Bot*** (Group Heal)
FField*** (Ultra HP Buffer)
Immo Copter*** (-MS/AS)
AoFate** (HP buffer)
CReconstitution** (heal)
Stormburst/Onslaught** (mobility + -MS)
Bulwark** (+ resist)

BRSK
25% all resist***
Shadow Burst*** (heal AND mobility)
Wolf Summon*** (free heal)
Ice Shield*** (if paired with high refelctive shield/sockets, is awesome)
Blood Hunger** (heal)
Shred Armour** (+armour)
Howl** (-AS)
Rage** (+armour)
Banner (dodge)
Savage Rush (+ MS)

EMBM
Frost Phase*** (heavy mobility)
Death's Bounty*** (HP/MP regain)
Immo Aura***(+ 15% all resist, available very late though)
Ice Prison** (blocks passage)
Elemental Boon (hardly noticeable, too many points required)
Prismatic Rift (unreliable at best, plus you must get hit first)

OTLR
Stone Pact*** (group heal/defense)
Shadow Veil (see Ice Shield, available too late however)
Burning Leap **(Mana expensive, available too late)
Rune Vault** (dangerous to use, blind is decent though)
Dodge**
Bramble Wall** (blocks passage)
Cursed Dagger* (-DMG)
Shotgonne Mastery* (good, but only if using rifles)
Repulsion Hex
Blade Pact (-AS/MS)
Tangling Shot


The base 25% all resist makes ranged ENGR/BRSK's way more survivable than EMBM/OTLR, likewise, without it, you virtually can't make a melee EMBM/OTLR even though there are skills that support them...

RaymondLi

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Re: Why is Stone Pact the only Outlander health regen skill?
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2013, 06:50:00 PM »
I too feel that the OTLR and EMBM have too few skills that aid protection, healing or general survivability, particularly if you play hardcore...

*** = awesome
** = good
* = decent

ENGR
25% all resists***
Heal Bot*** (Group Heal)
FField*** (Ultra HP Buffer)
Immo Copter*** (-MS/AS)
AoFate** (HP buffer)
CReconstitution** (heal)
Stormburst/Onslaught** (mobility + -MS)
Bulwark** (+ resist)

BRSK
25% all resist***
Shadow Burst*** (heal AND mobility)
Wolf Summon*** (free heal)
Ice Shield*** (if paired with high refelctive shield/sockets, is awesome)
Blood Hunger** (heal)
Shred Armour** (+armour)
Howl** (-AS)
Rage** (+armour)
Banner (dodge)
Savage Rush (+ MS)

EMBM
Frost Phase*** (heavy mobility)
Death's Bounty*** (HP/MP regain)
Immo Aura***(+ 15% all resist, available very late though)
Ice Prison** (blocks passage)
Elemental Boon (hardly noticeable, too many points required)
Prismatic Rift (unreliable at best, plus you must get hit first)

OTLR
Stone Pact*** (group heal/defense)
Shadow Veil (see Ice Shield, available too late however)
Burning Leap **(Mana expensive, available too late)
Rune Vault** (dangerous to use, blind is decent though)
Dodge**
Bramble Wall** (blocks passage)
Cursed Dagger* (-DMG)
Shotgonne Mastery* (good, but only if using rifles)
Repulsion Hex
Blade Pact (-AS/MS)
Tangling Shot


The base 25% all resist makes ranged ENGR/BRSK's way more survivable than EMBM/OTLR, likewise, without it, you virtually can't make a melee EMBM/OTLR even though there are skills that support them...

Disagree on :
Ice Prison(*** unless the monster can blink or do pierce ranged damage)
Cursed Dagger (should be *** because it can provide a damage reduction out of your own damage reduction especially you already have 75%DR)
Bramble Wall(*** can be combined with poison burst while you have life/mana steal ability, like free potions)
Rune Vault(*** faster cast than frost phase and allowing life/steal ability, blind)
Savage Rush(*** Immune almost all the melee attacks and traps)
Stone Pact(* too little for end game)

Not mentioned: Tremor (** monsters' physical damage reduced)
Anu belore dela'na

Craftea

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Re: Why is Stone Pact the only Outlander health regen skill?
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2013, 02:34:48 AM »
I largely disagree with most of your ratings.

ENGR
25% all resists*** <-- melee classes have it by default, since ranged classes have the range advantage, nothing to rate here.
Heal Bot*** (Group Heal) <-- in my experience, the HP heal is negligible, and so is the Armor. I take it solely for the MP regen. Wouldn't even consider this a survivability skill.
FField*** (Ultra HP Buffer) <-- The best survivability skill hands down.
Immo Copter*** (-MS/AS) <-- not so good in Syn because of the larger number of enemies, and rather ineffective against bosses. I would rate this as **
AoFate** (HP buffer) <-- worthless, since you can barely take a few hits from any monsters, let alone proc a 15%~ chance to take another 1 hit. Would rate as *
CReconstitution** (heal) <-- health amount is way too low, and only a few builds can hope to proc this skill consistantly. Would rate as *
Stormburst/Onslaught** (mobility + -MS) <-- every class has a mobility skill; no point rating
Bulwark** (+ resist) <-- you would still stack DR to hit the 75% cap anyway for all elements, so this ends up being worthless. Would rate as *

BRSK
25% all resist*** <-- see eng
Shadow Burst*** (heal AND mobility) <-- Pretty good 1 pointer. Mobility skill, but would rate as * if you want to consider the heal factor
Wolf Summon*** (free heal) <-- dies quickly if it gets focused on end game. Would rate as *, since Berserker is not very pet-oriented
Ice Shield*** (if paired with high refelctive shield/sockets, is awesome) <-- The Berserker's Forcefield, if you will. Definitely ***
Blood Hunger** (heal) <-- Heal isn't very significant; monsters will hit you for more than Blood Hunger could heal you per proc. Mostly capped because of the 1 proc per second, and the fact that it heals over 1s. Would rate as *
Shred Armour** (+armour) <-- Armor isn't very useful unless you can stack crazily high amounts due to the interaction with DR. Would rate as *.
Howl** (-AS) <-- Mostly not taken for the -AS, but the overall improvement to damage. Would rate as **.
Rage** (+armour) <-- can't remember what this is
Banner (dodge) <-- I think this is a little OP, so ***
Savage Rush (+ MS) <-- not actually a survivability skill, more of a damaging skill; Shadow Burst takes up the nobility niche

EMBM
Frost Phase*** (heavy mobility) <-- see ENG Onslaught/Storm Burst, doesn't matter what this gets rated as. Although should be mentioned that Frost attacks can apply the Frozen affix, slowing enemies down.
Death's Bounty*** (HP/MP regain) <-- HP regen not that significant, as per usual. Would rate as *
Immo Aura***(+ 15% all resist, available very late though) <-- DR is good. Would rate as ***
Ice Prison** (blocks passage) <-- I've heard people claiming this is a better damaging spell than it is a survivability one, since its nothing more than a speed bump end game
Elemental Boon (hardly noticeable, too many points required) <-- iirc, doesn't actually give you DR. Mostly an offensive buff. Would rate as *
Prismatic Rift (unreliable at best, plus you must get hit first) <-- see Aegis of Fate, would rate as *

Shatter Storm <-- Never tested it out, but since this is a CC that procs on kill, I'd put it as * because if you're killing stuff quickly, you don't need it and if you're not, you never proc it.

OTLR
Stone Pact*** (group heal/defense) <-- Heal is cool, but you only really want to sink 1 point in this if you're getting it for the heal, since, as always, health isn't particularly awesome. Would rate as *
Shadow Veil (see Ice Shield, available too late however) <-- Ice Shield is better since it can be kept up constantly but this is more like a temporary steroid skill. Would rate as **
Burning Leap **(Mana expensive, available too late) <-- Rune Vault is better since its avaliable earlier, cheaper, Blinds, and leaps backwards. Also I think it casts faster than BL at lv1. Is terrible
Rune Vault** (dangerous to use, blind is decent though) <-- see ENG Onslaught/Storm Burst. Would rate as **, because also applies Blind in addition to being a mobility skill
Dodge** <-- Also include Outlander Charge Bar, and Share the Wealth. You can easily hit the dodge cap with minimal investment in DEX. Would rate as ***
Bramble Wall** (blocks passage) <-- see Ice Prison, would rate as *
Cursed Dagger* (-DMG) <-- +MS, and other shit. Always worth sinking some points into, I feel. Would rate as ***, especially considering the monster count of Syn
Shotgonne Mastery* (good, but only if using rifles) <-- Stun, Blind and Knockback on a single skill. Would rate as ****
Repulsion Hex <-- may be better now, since there will be a change to Knockback/Stun resistances. Unsure.
Blade Pact (-AS/MS) <-- never heard too much about this, never bothered to try this out too much. Unsure.
Tangling Shot <-- immobilize is good. 1 pointer. Would rate as **.

If you're considering the number of survivability skills that all the classes have, then sure, Berzerker and Enginner have more.

But considering the quality of survivability skills, I'd say it isn't skewed that far (except maybe for Embermage). The Outlander still has a decent time, especially since he is the only one with a mobility skill that causes you to leap backwards (and not forwards).

Engineer is the most survivable because of how strong Force Field is (although you can still die pretty easily). Berserker comes in next because of Banner and Ice Shield, and then Outlander and Embermage.

Arguably, the Embermage is the worst of the 4 vanilla classes; Outlanders, relatively speaking, are pretty survivable.

BlooDLotuS

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Re: Why is Stone Pact the only Outlander health regen skill?
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2013, 04:53:00 AM »
Okay I haven't played Synergies, only vanilla HC, and I can tell you now, 1 point in Shadow Burst, Death's Bounty and Stone Pact won't last you long.
Heck, provided the poor Outlander and Embermage ever reach skill lvl 35.

I think people strongly underestimates the Healing provided by the bot, especially when coupled with FF;  it's a godsend to HC Engineers.

Shadow Burst at +/-max, will replenish 50% of your hp with one cast, not forgetting it'll have 75/100% shield break by then.

Death's Bounty is way more powerful than you'd think.
Slow, and stun eventually, and the health AND mana has helped me out of tight spots more just a few times, especially from dot and homing missiles.
In addition, this skill renders summoner type and en masse enemie a cake walk.

Rune Vault has killed me nearly as much as it has saved me.
If surrounded, you CAN'T vault out, and this skills has a nasty tendancy to vault you into the nearest solid object.  (E.g whilst going over a bridge, chances are you'll Vault into the sides) and I've used it a lot.
 
And back to the base 25% resist, it makes ranged Berserkers/Engineers too powerful, they technically should then have 0% too, no?
And without it, there's no way in hell you could ever make a melee/close ranged skill based Outlander/Embermage. (Shocking Burst/Arc Beam/Magma Mace/ImmoAura damage/Prismatic Rift/Glaive Sweep/Burning Glaives/Burning Leap/Bane Breath/Melee Outlander)

Craftea

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Re: Why is Stone Pact the only Outlander health regen skill?
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2013, 05:22:17 AM »
Okay I haven't played Synergies, only vanilla HC, and I can tell you now, 1 point in Shadow Burst, Death's Bounty and Stone Pact won't last you long.
Heck, provided the poor Outlander and Embermage ever reach skill lvl 35.

I think people strongly underestimates the Healing provided by the bot, especially when coupled with FF;  it's a godsend to HC Engineers.

Shadow Burst at +/-max, will replenish 50% of your hp with one cast, not forgetting it'll have 75/100% shield break by then.

Death's Bounty is way more powerful than you'd think.
Slow, and stun eventually, and the health AND mana has helped me out of tight spots more just a few times, especially from dot and homing missiles.
In addition, this skill renders summoner type and en masse enemie a cake walk.

Rune Vault has killed me nearly as much as it has saved me.
If surrounded, you CAN'T vault out, and this skills has a nasty tendancy to vault you into the nearest solid object.  (E.g whilst going over a bridge, chances are you'll Vault into the sides) and I've used it a lot.
 
And back to the base 25% resist, it makes ranged Berserkers/Engineers too powerful, they technically should then have 0% too, no?
And without it, there's no way in hell you could ever make a melee/close ranged skill based Outlander/Embermage. (Shocking Burst/Arc Beam/Magma Mace/ImmoAura damage/Prismatic Rift/Glaive Sweep/Burning Glaives/Burning Leap/Bane Breath/Melee Outlander)

Healing in vanilla HC is a little different from Healing in Elite Syn.

In vanilla HC, you have to put skill points into survivability skills earlier on, which is where healing is still relevant. Towards vanilla/Syn end game however, healing falls off to obscurity.

My judgement on Death's Bounty in my earlier post was only in consideration of how useful it was in helping you survive (i.e. how relevant the heal was towards your survival). Admittedly, I forgot about the stun/slow portion, which does help CC.

The other skills, I rated low, because they only contributed to survivability via healing which cannot keep up with end game damage. I didn't at all consider the other factors (e.g. Shield Break of Shadow Burst) because those were not defensive aspects of the skill, and didn't help your character survive. (other than the fact that they help you kill stuff faster)

Rune Vault is difficult to use properly, but that doesn't make it any less useful of a skill when it is used properly. Using Onslaught/Storm Burst/Frost Phase/Shadow Burst/Burning Leap into the nearest solid object would also end up killing you as well. It doesn't make any of these skills "weaker", and I don't see why the more difficult to use Rune Vault should be considered "weaker".

Personally, I don't have any issue with removing the 25% DR on Eng/Berserker and compensating them by buffing up melee builds, but I don't think that the 25% DR is that unreasonable for Frost Berserker, Cannon/Summoner Engineers.

BlooDLotuS

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Re: Why is Stone Pact the only Outlander health regen skill?
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2013, 01:48:52 PM »
I find it near pointless to play non-hardcore anymore really; with non-HC, you die, so what
By the sounds of it, is Synergies mod catering for HC mode?
I like most, don't find endless kiting fun.

I just mentioned/added the shield break capability of Shadow Burst, because that's how good. Lvl1 skill it is.

Quote
Rune Vault is difficult to use properly, but that doesn't make it any less useful of a skill when it is used properly. Using Onslaught/Storm Burst/Frost Phase/Shadow Burst/Burning Leap into the nearest solid object would also end up killing you as well. It doesn't make any of these skills "weaker", and I don't see why the more difficult to use Rune Vault should be considered "weaker".

I don't quite know how to explain it.
The mechanic that let's you go back instead of forward, is what makes it unique I agree, but for some reason, it also messes up.
Unless it's complete open terrain, no matter how well I 'aim', I always end up bumping into the nearest object.
And I must go test again, but am near absolutely sure you can't Vault out once surrounded.


Anyway, I suppose most skills do come down to personal preference.
Hated Bane Breath at first, now I love it, now matter how hard it is build around it.
I dispise cookie cutter builds.

Craftea

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Re: Why is Stone Pact the only Outlander health regen skill?
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2013, 11:40:59 PM »
I find it near pointless to play non-hardcore anymore really; with non-HC, you die, so what
By the sounds of it, is Synergies mod catering for HC mode?
I like most, don't find endless kiting fun.

I just mentioned/added the shield break capability of Shadow Burst, because that's how good. Lvl1 skill it is.

Quote
Rune Vault is difficult to use properly, but that doesn't make it any less useful of a skill when it is used properly. Using Onslaught/Storm Burst/Frost Phase/Shadow Burst/Burning Leap into the nearest solid object would also end up killing you as well. It doesn't make any of these skills "weaker", and I don't see why the more difficult to use Rune Vault should be considered "weaker".

I don't quite know how to explain it.
The mechanic that let's you go back instead of forward, is what makes it unique I agree, but for some reason, it also messes up.
Unless it's complete open terrain, no matter how well I 'aim', I always end up bumping into the nearest object.
And I must go test again, but am near absolutely sure you can't Vault out once surrounded.


Anyway, I suppose most skills do come down to personal preference.
Hated Bane Breath at first, now I love it, now matter how hard it is build around it.
I dispise cookie cutter builds.

Synergies is not balanced for HC - you will die playing Synergies. HC Synergies is just a matter of how far you can get before dying.

You can Vault through monsters, like you can Onslaught/Storm Burst/Frost Phase etc. through monsters.

I don't agree that most skills come down to personal preference, because at the moment there are some skills that are significantly better/worse than others (unless you're hell bent on playing a certain build or using certain skills).

Bane Breath is one of those skills, because the damage is so low you can barely kill anything to proc it.

Cookie cutter builds exist because they're one of the most effective builds. They're not the only viable build, but if you deviate from them, you usually want to have a good idea of what you're doing or Elite/Hard HC Synergies will be quickly watered down to kiting 24/7. (well I guess this logic applies to any difficult game)