Author Topic: Coup de Grace  (Read 4473 times)

Craftea

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Coup de Grace
« on: April 23, 2013, 07:37:34 AM »
As of current, this skill is used as a 1 pointer to clear thrash mobs, for cannon-based or WDPS STR based builds.

It has a 1 second cooldown, and a small AOE on proc. The proc only happens with WDPS skills (and of course normal attacks) only.

Coup de Grace only procs on stunned enemies, which is the main problem since Elite, Hero, Champion and Boss monsters all have stun resistances (with bosses having very significant resistances).


Unless stun mechanics can be reworked, the most immediate solution seems to be to change the proc conditon of CdG.

Some options:

- % based
The most obvious, and boring. (although, stun procs are %based too......) I think a potiential problem with this is that CdG scales incredibly well, and this may make it a little too strong.

- procs off Shocked targets
Basically, Lightning Brand. The Engineer has several lightning based skills, so this is a good way to throw it in.

- has a chance to proc off the Charged Bolts that Shocked enemies release
Not sure if this is do-able, but it would be kind of cool, although we'd be back in to square one with "sucks against bosses".

- procs off Slowed targets
The Engineer has a bunch of slowing abilities (Onslaught, Immobilizing Copter, Shield Bash to name a few), so this was a natural option, right?

- procs off Crits
The Engineer isn't the Berserker, so... well I'm iffy about this one. Just throwing it out.

- has a % chance to proc for every condition the enemy has
A little generic, but this would include Stun, Blind, Immobilize, Freeze, Shock, Burn, Poison, andddd basically any buff. (IIRC, the Engineer has a multitude of buffs)


Alternatively, Coup de Grace could be a passive enhancement skill.

e.g.

Whenever the Engineer uses a Charge, the next attack will proc a Coup de Grace, dealing Electric damage based on your STR. (with internal cooldown, of course)

- or -

Whenever the Engineer has full Charge, the next attack will be a Coup de Grace, dealing Electric damage based on your STR.  (with internal cooldown, who'd guess?)

Cy_

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Re: Coup de Grace
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2013, 12:24:01 PM »
I dont even put 1 pt in it anymore. If theyre stunned theyre already dead, if they arent dead then they arent stunned so what good is it, just as you said.

Knockback is becoming the same way. Bosses/heroes are ignoring my DASH now, and since the stun at the end doesnt work except to interrupt, I just use the DASH to get around quick or 1-shot mini-trash.

Craftea

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Re: Coup de Grace
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2013, 06:54:42 AM »
I dont even put 1 pt in it anymore. If theyre stunned theyre already dead, if they arent dead then they arent stunned so what good is it, just as you said.

Knockback is becoming the same way. Bosses/heroes are ignoring my DASH now, and since the stun at the end doesnt work except to interrupt, I just use the DASH to get around quick or 1-shot mini-trash.

I think its a problem where these affixes are way too strong, and instead of designing the gameplay around these powerful affixes, Runic took the easy way out and gave everything a bunch of resistances.

Interrupt is completely worthless because thrash mobs die before interrupt, and bosses are completely immune to it. Stun, as you've mentioned, is as well.

Effects like Blind and Immobilize that actually have a chance on working, are extremely powerful and potentially even reduces the game to nothing but point and click.

It's not exactly a problem with the skill itself, but rather the mechanics that the skill is built around.

TBH, I feel stun could be reworked.


Back to CdG though, I feel that CdG is a really cool skill that you can focus an entire build upon, or just use it for high STR (WDPS) builds as an extra source of damage.

The only problem is that CdG is a pain to proc on anything except thrash mobs which should drop dead instantly anyway.

Salan

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Re: Coup de Grace
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2013, 10:31:29 PM »
definitely the best candidate for change
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Dongaldo

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Re: Coup de Grace
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2013, 02:24:24 AM »
That's exciting. I have upper mid-level engineer and never thought about the no stuns on elites+. Excellent stuff for me yo think about when speccing my toon.

dreams

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Re: Coup de Grace
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2013, 02:58:36 AM »
Maybe we could change it such it it procs on a shock target rather than a stun target, and then in turn nerf the damage to 1xstr and 0.2 increase per pnt.

Craftea

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Re: Coup de Grace
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2013, 06:57:55 AM »
Maybe we could change it such it it procs on a shock target rather than a stun target, and then in turn nerf the damage to 1xstr and 0.2 increase per pnt.

Not sure if the damage should be nerfed so severely from the onset.

Since barely anyone uses CdG, we don't even know whether the damage is significant or not.

I think it would be best to wait for a bit until people start to dabble with a changed and viable CdG. In fact, it would probably be best to have it be a little OP so people would be more willing to test it out, before any further changes.

dreams

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Re: Coup de Grace
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2013, 07:21:09 AM »
Not sure if the damage should be nerfed so severely from the onset.

Since barely anyone uses CdG, we don't even know whether the damage is significant or not.

I think it would be best to wait for a bit until people start to dabble with a changed and viable CdG. In fact, it would probably be best to have it be a little OP so people would be more willing to test it out, before any further changes.

Well if we do change it like i mentioned, it will act similar to the embermage brands and the damage for that is approximately 2000-6000. CdG at 15pnt would be 10xstr, for a char focusing on str (1000 str is easily reached for a str focus build) the damage would be 10k with no lower range. It definitely will need a nerf. Maybe not so much at the onset, but i feel its better to nerf at the first change then slowly increase rather leave it alone then nerf. There will be much less crying.

Craftea

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Re: Coup de Grace
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2013, 07:30:44 AM »
Well if we do change it like i mentioned, it will act similar to the embermage brands and the damage for that is approximately 2000-6000. CdG at 15pnt would be 10xstr, for a char focusing on str (1000 str is easily reached for a str focus build) the damage would be 10k with no lower range. It definitely will need a nerf. Maybe not so much at the onset, but i feel its better to nerf at the first change then slowly increase rather leave it alone then nerf. There will be much less crying.

10k damage in a small AOE on a single target might not be as impressive as you imagine.

Other builds are capable of doing that kind of damage across a larger area and faster.

You have to take into consideration that CdG will never scale with cast speed, or attack speed, whereas most other skills will.

Both of us are just theorycrafting. I still think it would be best to play test it first before talking about nerfs or buffs.

Period

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Re: Coup de Grace
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2013, 01:02:08 PM »
What is the effect of stun, that it is necessary that enemies have such a strong resistance to it? I have a hard time finding the answer, but I assume just from experience that it it is the standard RPG "stun" fare; that is, it completely locks down the target for a few seconds, which you'd clearly want to prevent in order to keep challenging content challenging.

However, weakening it to the point of being irrelevant, by making elites (let alone heroes and bosses) so resistant to it that it may as well not exist is the wrong decision: you (rather, Runic) put all the work into creating the stat and itemizing it, only to turn around and make it useless because it would otherwise trump everything.

I don't know if it's possible, but maybe we can look changing the effect of stun, so that you no longer need to make powerful enemies nigh-on immune to it. For example, stun on a player just slows you down significantly. Perhaps it can do the same for enemies; that is, a combination movement/slow/cast/attack speed reduction? And further more, perhaps the effect of that slow can be mitigated by a boss's stun resistance. For example, if stun is re-coded to be a 75% reduction to speeds, but a boss is 80% resistant to stun, it can instead reduce that boss's speeds by only (75 - (75 * .8) =) 15%. In this way, effects which depend on stun can still apply, without stun alone being an overly powerful effect.

Of course, this causes quite an overlap with slows, of which the engineer has many. Perhaps allow the effect of stun-slow to stack with slow-slow? For example: you apply a 30% slow via onslaught, and then stun the target, the resulting effect is a 105% speed reduction for the duration of the stun (presuming no stun resistance or slow resistance, which I presume bosses also have). Alternate options include making it cause one of a random set of other, less powerful effects (such as blind, immobilize, or temporary armor reduction like poison), or even just a damage reduction for the duration (though this again overlaps with poison).

But this all presumes that such a basic game mechanic can be changed, which I don't know whether it is possible or not.