Author Topic: Engineer skills that need changing  (Read 4987 times)

Salan

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Engineer skills that need changing
« on: April 24, 2013, 10:30:41 PM »
Obviously like the other classes, any static damage spells should be looked at, but what about others, like coup de grace and shield spells.

i am willing to alter things at this time, so ... if you want to talk, i am reading this forum
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Dongaldo

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Re: Engineer skills that need changing
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2013, 02:26:58 AM »
Would Force Field work as a % armor based bubble? Then have a damage skill or two that scale from armor?

Craftea

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Re: Engineer skills that need changing
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2013, 07:19:45 AM »
I'm just going to quickly go across the board for a bunch of skills.

Heal Bot
Every single Engineer build in existence dumps 15 points into this. Not sure if this needs a nerf, or just everything else needs to be buffed up.

Charge Reconstitution
Heals way too little, and only has excellent synergy with Flame Hammer, since that eats charges rapidly.

Sword and Board
Too weak.

Bulwark
Physical Armor is practically worthless end game, and Physical % reduction is useless if you're going to max out DR for Elemental resistances.

Aegis of Fate
Scales poorly into the end game, plus getting hit in the end game is also generally bad. And proc chance is pretty low.

Supercharge Weapon
Outclassed by Shield Bash and Dynamo Field as charge gaining skills

Ember Hammer
1 pointer for the purposes of breaking shields

Onslaught
1 pointer for the escape/slow

Heavy Lifting
Stun is lackluster in the end game, and I personally feel the attack speed buff is too minor.

Coup de Grace
Proc condition is way too difficult to achieve on bosses/champions/elite/hero

Ember Reach
Usually only works on normal mobs, and even then, some resist it. The stun portion is useless because its single target. Mostly used for the damage amplify, although Tremor has far better effects and a damage amplify itself.

Gun Bot
AI is completely wonky before the Range Increase Tier upgrade.

Shock Grenades/Seismic Slam
Mainly stun-based skills, but stun sucks. Damage is relatively low.

Fusillade
(P.S.: I don't really play Cannoneers)
I've heard stuff about wonky target detection from this skill, not sure if true.

Flame Bash
Static Fire damage too low, Shield based damage is lower than Shield Bash. Pretty much only used for the %FireDamage Amplify Tier 3 bonus.

Shield Bash
One of the best support skills, although as a main offensive skill, it falls off later into the game. (Not necessarily the most important thing to change, but it could lead to dedicated Shield Bashers)

Storm Burst
Poor DPS skill. Mostly used as an escape spell, or to regenerate mana? Although most Engineers just rely on the passive Heal Bot, and pots which are more than enough.

Overload
Static damage, eats all your charges, and has a cooldown. I feel the damage is too low, for the price of losing all your charges.

Charge Domination
I don't use this at all. I prefer to rely on Shield Bash/Dynamo. Maybe someone else has an opinion on it?

Emberquake
Fixed Fire damage, might be something to look at.

HughManatee

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Re: Engineer skills that need changing
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2013, 09:11:35 AM »
I have to agree with Craftea that stun is probably the biggest problem for engineers, since they have at least 5 skills based around stun, and in Synergies stun isn't very useful considering how hard it is to stun elites and heroes.

The second biggest problem is the shield/armour skills:

Aegis of Fate doesn't proc if you have Forcefield up, and who is going to play endgame Synergies without Forcefield up? Not to mention on the odd chance that you don't have Forcefield up, each hit only has a 16% chance of proccing AoF when it's maxed out. That means on average, you take 5-6 hits before AoF appears. In Synergies, 5-6 hits as an Engineer with no shield means you're toast. One thought would be to make it a time based skill, e.g. absorbs ALL damage for 20 seconds or whatever, so that it would be a legitimate tactic to run around trash mobs trying to get it procced without dying, and then charge the boss until time's up, and repeat.

Bulwark, as already mentioned, isn't that useful because physical armour isn't that useful. Either it needs to be boosted dramatically, or it needs to include some amount of elemental damage resistance or DR. DR would be interesting because that would add the strategy of whether you should spend skill points on Bulwark in order to free up gem slots that would have been used to max DR.

Sword and Board is just too weak because damage has increased significantly, so S&B only adds a tiny proportion of that, not to mention that again physical damage isn't very useful so people who use a shield are probably picking the one with the best boosts, not the best armour value. S&B should require a shield (of course) but maybe expand it to include total modified physical armour rather than just shield armour. That way it would sync up with Bulwark and make them both a bit more useful. Also it makes sense in that an Engineer fighting in close combat will probably use whatever protected part of his body he can to cause damage, including kicking, punching/stiffarms, added momentum from wearing heavy armour etc.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2013, 09:13:39 AM by HughManatee »

Cy_

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Re: Engineer skills that need changing
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2013, 12:03:36 PM »
I have my Engnr down to 2 buttons.

Stormburst
Forcefield

on the mouse:

auto attack
emberquake

the rest of my points go in passives, mostly beause everything else is a waste of time. I dont use heal bot, never have, but I'll give it a look see. I have a summoner class toon. I dont really WANT to dick around looking to see if something is cast or not. I'd turn off my pet too if I didnt think it'd screw stuff up. I dual wield @ .35 attack speed. I hit for 15k 3x a second with a 50%+ crit chance.

Stormburst is good only because it interrupts even boss casts or it lets me escape.

Emberquake is good for the 1 second 150k crits I build up autoswinging even tho it has a high mana cost, it's my breaker.

The rest has proven a waste of my time. NOt in Syn so much as just in the entire T2 game altogether.

True, I do die. If it was still as pitiful as it was in vanilla T2 (toon was started the day T2 was released and to the current date has only died 117 times, about 100 of them in Syn, on ELITE.

Yeah, I'm always OP, but it's not nearly as bad as vanilla was. I gear at the top, always have in any game. What I like best about Syn is that no matter how you gear, you're gonna get your ass kicked. Even if it takes 2x white dragon bosses at the same time to do it. Play careful, play thorough, and get your ass kicked anyway. Just like RL. For me, that's good gaming. That's why I'm here and not somewhere else. I was a vicious bastard as a DM for almost 20 years. I dont have much interest in games you can solve in an hour of bumbling around.

I'm off to figure out texture sheet patterns for Frigid set now, get them into gimp, blender, ogre and finally guts, and that's puzzle enough for anybody.


xpoferens

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Re: Engineer skills that need changing
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2013, 05:48:33 PM »
Fusillade
(P.S.: I don't really play Cannoneers)
I've heard stuff about wonky target detection from this skill, not sure if true.
Seconded. It feels like the missiles miss more than hit.

Simply increasing hit radius might fix this.

Craftea

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Re: Engineer skills that need changing
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2013, 06:05:57 AM »
the rest of my points go in passives, mostly beause everything else is a waste of time. I dont use heal bot, never have, but I'll give it a look see. I have a summoner class toon. I dont really WANT to dick around looking to see if something is cast or not. I'd turn off my pet too if I didnt think it'd screw stuff up. I dual wield @ .35 attack speed. I hit for 15k 3x a second with a 50%+ crit chance.

Technically, Heal Bot and Immobilization Copter are passives too.

Heal Bot is useful if you don't want to constant chug pots. But mostly I just throw points into it because it helps with leveling and there's nothing else really as useful as Heal Bot.

RetsReds

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Re: Engineer skills that need changing
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2013, 04:02:08 PM »
Just wanted to say - keep in mind when you make changes not to mess up the off-specs. Like the cannonier for example. Someone mentioned here that the stun in Heavy Lifting isn't good enough and I agree - for the other specs it's nothing interesting, but for a cannonier it's pretty cool - Heavy Lifting + cannon's natural stun + end-game sets' stun + 15/15 Fusillade usually means stunlocking Champion mobs and at least 3-5 stuns in a boss fight, so it's pretty neat.

I'm just saying that because modders usually forget about the off-specs when making class overhauls (not that I've had any bad experience with Synergies so far, but I just wanted give my input). :)
« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 04:19:23 PM by RetsReds »

Salan

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Re: Engineer skills that need changing
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2013, 06:06:16 PM »
I really try not to forget about offspecs when changing something, and its part of why I haven't made some of the changes people suggest ;)
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RetsReds

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Re: Engineer skills that need changing
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2013, 11:54:26 PM »
I really try not to forget about offspecs when changing something, and its part of why I haven't made some of the changes people suggest ;)

Great. :)

And while I've got your attention on the engineer - I noticed that the (3) Earnest female engineer face (the cutest female face in the game ;D) from the Vanilla game is missing in Synergies. It's no biggie, but just thought I should mention it. ;)
« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 11:56:55 PM by RetsReds »

RetsReds

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Re: Engineer skills that need changing
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2013, 01:48:45 AM »
Fusillade suggestion:
So, what's the deal with Fusillade? A 15/15 Fusillade is actually a pretty awesome skill - It has nice damage, nice AoE, nice stun chance (provided you have a nice stun chance on your weapon) and the weak targeting is not a problem because after 10/15 the rockets become AoE. The problem with Fusillade lies in it's first 10 ranks and imo it should be easy to fix.

Current Fusillade:
Rank 1: You fire 2 rockets that deal 30% of your DPS as fire damage to single targets.
Rank 2: You fire 2 rockets that deal 32% of your DPS as fire damage to single targets.
Rank 3: You fire 2 rockets that deal 34% of your DPS as fire damage to single targets.
Rank 4: You fire 2 rockets that deal 36% of your DPS as fire damage to single targets.
Rank 5: You fire 3 rockets that deal 38% of your DPS as fire damage to single targets.
Rank 6: You fire 3 rockets that deal 40% of your DPS as fire damage to single targets.
Rank 7: You fire 3 rockets that deal 42% of your DPS as fire damage to single targets.
Rank 8: You fire 3 rockets that deal 44% of your DPS as fire damage to single targets.
Rank 9: You fire 3 rockets that deal 46% of your DPS as fire damage to single targets.
Rank 10: You fire 3 rockets that deal 48% of your DPS as fire damage in an AoE.
Rank 11: You fire 3 rockets that deal 50% of your DPS as fire damage in an AoE.
Rank 12: You fire 3 rockets that deal 52% of your DPS as fire damage in an AoE.
Rank 13: You fire 3 rockets that deal 54% of your DPS as fire damage in an AoE.
Rank 14: You fire 3 rockets that deal 56% of your DPS as fire damage in an AoE.
Rank 15: You fire 4 rockets that deal 58% of your DPS as fire damage in an AoE.

So how about if we change it to this:

Rank 1: You fire 1 rocket that deal 44% of your DPS as fire damage in an AoE.
Rank 2: You fire 1 rocket that deal 45% of your DPS as fire damage in an AoE.
Rank 3: You fire 1 rocket that deal 46% of your DPS as fire damage in an AoE.
Rank 4: You fire 1 rocket that deal 47% of your DPS as fire damage in an AoE.
Rank 5: You fire 2 rockets that deal 48% of your DPS as fire damage in an AoE.
Rank 6: You fire 2 rockets that deal 49% of your DPS as fire damage in an AoE.
Rank 7: You fire 2 rockets that deal 50% of your DPS as fire damage in an AoE.
Rank 8: You fire 2 rockets that deal 51% of your DPS as fire damage in an AoE.
Rank 9: You fire 2 rockets that deal 52% of your DPS as fire damage in an AoE.
Rank 10: You fire 3 rockets that deal 53% of your DPS as fire damage in an AoE.
Rank 11: You fire 3 rockets that deal 54% of your DPS as fire damage in an AoE.
Rank 12: You fire 3 rockets that deal 55% of your DPS as fire damage in an AoE.
Rank 13: You fire 3 rockets that deal 56% of your DPS as fire damage in an AoE.
Rank 14: You fire 3 rockets that deal 57% of your DPS as fire damage in an AoE.
Rank 15: You fire 4 rockets that deal 58% of your DPS as fire damage in an AoE.

So, the 15/15 of the skill will be exactly the same so no change there - just as awesome as it is right now. However if we give the skill it's AoE from Rank 1, instead of Rank 10 then reaching Rank 10 becomes much more manageable. And because 2 rockets with AoE might be a bit overpowered for Rank 1 (I don't actually think it would be, but nvm) we change it to 1 rocket only and add the second rocket through the Tier 2 bonus. And because 1 rocket with 30% DPS might be a bit underpowered we change the DPS increase rate from 30%-58% to 44%-58%. Unless of course you can just make the AI targeting better. ;D

What do you think? I know fixing one of the Engineer's skills is surely not your priority right now but I love cannoniers and just wanted to give my feedback now so whenever you decide to dig into the problem you can have it. :)

Cheers.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2013, 01:50:24 AM by RetsReds »

Celstra

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Re: Engineer skills that need changing
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2013, 07:56:45 AM »
"Aegis of Fate doesn't proc if you have Forcefield up, and who is going to play endgame Synergies without Forcefield up?"

Not sure if that's true, I was in DK killing raid boss with my force field up and mine was procing during the battle. This was just yesterday.

RetsReds

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Re: Engineer skills that need changing
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2013, 08:11:41 AM »
"Aegis of Fate doesn't proc if you have Forcefield up, and who is going to play endgame Synergies without Forcefield up?"

Not sure if that's true, I was in DK killing raid boss with my force field up and mine was procing during the battle. This was just yesterday.

Yes, it's proccing properly now, but back then (around the time when he wrote that) it was bugged and didn't proc under FF. It's been fixed for quite some time now, but that doesn't make AoF any less lacklustre. :)

RaymondLi

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Re: Engineer skills that need changing
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2013, 08:42:04 AM »
"Aegis of Fate doesn't proc if you have Forcefield up, and who is going to play endgame Synergies without Forcefield up?"

Not sure if that's true, I was in DK killing raid boss with my force field up and mine was procing during the battle. This was just yesterday.

Yes, it's proccing properly now, but back then (around the time when he wrote that) it was bugged and didn't proc under FF. It's been fixed for quite some time now, but that doesn't make AoF any less lacklustre. :)

Some damages like burning and ground traps can bypass the FF.
AoF can be proc'd when you are damaged.
FF is totally independent from this topic. It's just FF that absorbs most of the damages and proc chance of AoF is already quite low.
Anu belore dela'na

Thatmg7

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Re: Engineer skills that need changing
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2015, 09:56:32 AM »
Heal Bot

doesn't need nerfing

the issue is that you feel that healbot is so much better than other skills because other skills are so BAD compared to it.

Again healing isn't go to do anything at t1+ because you just get 1hit etc ec