Author Topic: The Trinity - Force Field, Aegis of Fate, Charge Reconsitution  (Read 7136 times)

Craftea

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The Trinity - Force Field, Aegis of Fate, Charge Reconsitution
« on: September 25, 2013, 08:36:23 AM »
So, I have a pretty lengthy opinion about these 3 skills, and I'll try to squeeze everything into as few words as possible. Although it would still be pretty long.

I understand that my opinion (in particular about Force Field) may be a little controversial, but bear with me.

The post will be divided into 4 sections (because its so long):

The Facts - What these 3 skills currently do
The Traits - Noteworthy stuff relating to these 3 skills
The Reality - How the skills actually function in game
The (Proposed) Changes - Where I think these 3 skills need to go

The Facts

(lifted directly from Torchlight Wiki: http://torchlight.wikia.com/wiki/Torchlight_Wiki)

Force Field
"Your armor projects Ember energy, creating a forcefield around you, and a half-strength forcefield around allies. Once the forcefield absorbs its maximum damage it dissipates, removing all benefits. Forcefield uses all available Charges to increase damage absorption by 50% per Charge."
Tier I: Mana cost and casting time are reduced by 20%
Tier II: Allies receive a full strength shield.
Tier III: Mana cost and casting time are reduced by 50%


- % chance to cast, does not proc when your Force Field takes damage
- Affects allies
- 8 seconds cooldown
- Provides increasing Knockback resistance as it is leveled
- Amount blocked increases with both player and skill level

Aegis of Fate
When foes attack you, your armor has a chance to generate a defensive "bubble" around you that prevents further damage. The amount of damage this shield can absorb is equal to 200% of your Armor plus 100. While Aegis is active, you also get 50% Knockback Resistance.

- % chance to proc increases with level.
- % chance to cast, does not proc while Aegis of Fate is active (including its own cast)
- Negligible (if any) internal cooldown
- Considers the total physical armor only, after it is scaled by VIT, and +% to (physical) armor.

Charge Reconstitution
Whenever the Engineer spends a Charge  on an ability, they regain a portion of their health over the next two seconds.

- Does not stack with itself; further procs only refresh the buff duration
- Scales with skill and player level
- Procs off any Charge usage

The Traits

Mostly my opinion, but I felt listing this down would help people understand my proposed changes better. I've conveniently excluded directly mentioning how much each skill actually heals/blocks, because that's a matter of tweaking numbers (and doesn't need much discussion beyond than plain observation that a certain skill does too much etc. etc.)

Force Field
- Affects allies, and minions (therefore beneficial to summoners, and builds utilizing summons)
- Significant boost to Knockback Resistance
- Is the only active out of the three; also therefore the only one with tier bonuses
- Consumes all Charges
- Has a cooldown

Aegis of Fate
- Procs on hit, which is pretty poor
- Scales with Armor, and in turn VIT as well as +% armor / physical armor
- Considerable boost to Knockback Resistance

Charge Reconstitution
- Does not stack with itself
- Heals for fixed values
- Does not scale with anything
- Procs on Charge consumption
- Is the only Heal out of the three

The Reality

Force Field blocks way too much damage, compared to Aegis of Fate, and the potential Heals from Charge Reconstitution. It completely overshadows them. Force Field is also worthless in the earlier levels, barely absorbing more than a few hits, as opposed to the many hits a player can take.

Aegis of Fate can rarely proc in the end game due to end game damage values. Even if it does, 200% of a player's physical armor will rarely be enough to shield for more than a single hit. While significant at the very early stages of the game, quickly becomes irrelevant.

Charge Reconstitution does not heal fast enough to cover the damage dealt in the end game, and since it doesn't scale with anything nor stacks with itself, its use is limited at best. It should also be noted that the only main attack skill that consistently uses Charge is Flame Hammer (other skills include Tremor, Flame Bash, Shock Grenades, Force Field).

The Changes

I view each of these skills as potentially 'core' survival skills for the Engineer. I think each, if equally balanced, provides survivability in a unique way that would be more benifical to certain builds and less to others.

At the same time, to prevent the Engineer from having too much survivability from simply taking all 3 skills, each must scale in different way from the others.

With that in mind:

Force Field
"Your armor projects Ember energy, creating a forcefield around you, and your allies. Once the forcefield absorbs its maximum damage it dissipates, removing all benefits."
Tier I: Minions receive a x1.5 strength shield.
Tier II: Minions receive a x2.0 strength shield.
Tier III: Minions receive a x2.5 strength shield.


- Flat value increased
- No cooldown
- Will no longer provide Knockback resistance
- Amount blocked increases with both player and skill level
- Players should still receive the same strength shield as the caster

Rationale
Force Field, as an active skill, that initially affected allies, is a perfect Summoner skill. It provides Summon Engineers something active to do while spamming Spider Mines and whatever other summons they may have.

This change emphasizes Force Field as an active summoner skill, using it as a sort of 'mana shield' and allowing it to scale with Mana and Cast Speed (to actually cast Force Field). It provides Summon Engineers another direction to scale into the end game. However, it could still be utilized in other builds, should those builds have the mana to support it.

The removal of Knockback Resistance is meant to discourage melee builds from using it, because that was an unnecessary perk to this already powerful skill. (Aegis of Fate will still retain its Knockback Resistance)

Overall, it forces the player to specialize their characters into making full use of Force Field. It is no longer the same generic skill that is available to all Engineers, and also has less utility. However, it also scales better with selected builds.

Aegis of Fate
Every X seconds, your armor generates a defensive "bubble" around you that prevents further damage. The amount of damage this shield can absorb is based on Y% of your armor. While Aegis is active, you also gain Z% Knockback Resistance.

- X decreases with skill level; Y and Z increases with skill level

Rationale
The risky proc on damage is replaced with a fixed interval proc. I felt too high a proc chance would reduce this skill into either a pesudo-block mechanic or a "tank a bit of damage to HP, proc Aegis, spam heals under Aegis, rinse and repeat", which while reasonable, felt a little unreliable as a survivability skill since proc chance still does have a chance to fail after all.

In this rendition, it would essentially achieve the exact same goal without the unreliability, nor the pesudo-block styled defence.

Proccing every interval allows the Engineer to basically resist a certain threshold of damage before he sustain real damage. This is heavily synergistic with the overall Engineer skillset, containing slows, stuns, Knockbacks and (most importantly) armor boosting skills.

It also provides melee builds with their Knockback Resistance.

Overall, it would make Aegis of Fate more usable.

Charge Reconstitution
Whenever the Engineer spends a Charge on an ability, they regain X% of their health.

- X increases with level

Rationale
Instant heal, allowing it to keep up with any damage source.

Scales with Max Health (hence VIT, +HP and %HP), Cast Speed and Charge Rate (aka Damage?).

RaymondLi

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Re: The Trinity - Force Field, Aegis of Fate, Charge Reconsitution
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2013, 09:05:02 AM »
I think Force field is already too strong only for damage absorption respect. So I don't understand why you said "flat value increased" here. (Unless you remove or nerf the charge addition)

I agree with buff on following 2 skills. But do note that Charge Reconstitution in your way would be easily overpowered if you make X a little bit high, since some skill like overload would use up all the charge, and that means regain 5*X% hp. How to make X not too low while 5X not too high is the main problem here. Charge is not a problem when you are using shield bash, dynamic field or supercharge.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 09:11:04 AM by RaymondLi »
Anu belore dela'na

dreams

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Re: The Trinity - Force Field, Aegis of Fate, Charge Reconsitution
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2013, 11:46:09 AM »
I think only the sledgebot has HP and can die??? If thats the case the summoner buff is quite pointless. Also your changes for FF is devastating in a MP game. Imagine four engineers with no CD FF.

Imho there is no need to nerf the FF's effect, increasing the cost to maintain it is good enough. Double the mana cost, increase the CD to 10s and give a charge cost to free skills (emberquake, seismic slam etc). This way dedicated FF builds can still be strong defensively using all their charge to maintain it, attacking builds either need to nerf their damage to maintain FF or nerf FF to attack.

Quite like your idea for aegis but think % heal over time is more suitable for Charge Reconstitution. Instant heal is too powerful.

Ghostblade4802

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Re: The Trinity - Force Field, Aegis of Fate, Charge Reconsitution
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2013, 09:14:54 PM »
Interesting. Divine Bulwark was going to be the replacement for Sword and Board, which was essentially just an Aegis proc with some changes and tweaks. But now I'd be interested in seeing how this fixed time proc thing worked, so I might do that for Divine Bulwark instead.

The only problem with the "occur on intervals" thing is you essentially end up with a mini-Forcefield active all the time. I assume the buff lasts forever (like Aegis) and just keeps refreshing on the interval. The alternative is to make the buff last only a certain amount of time before dissapating, and then a pause before getting it back, and that takes away the reliability.

Not that having a mini-Forcefield all the time isn't kind of awesome, and it would let you take a bigger risk by rushing into fights head-first and soaking up the initial damage, instead of waiting for a proc.

I think Force field is already too strong only for damage absorption respect. So I don't understand why you said "flat value increased" here. (Unless you remove or nerf the charge addition)

I agree with buff on following 2 skills. But do note that Charge Reconstitution in your way would be easily overpowered if you make X a little bit high, since some skill like overload would use up all the charge, and that means regain 5*X% hp. How to make X not too low while 5X not too high is the main problem here. Charge is not a problem when you are using shield bash, dynamic field or supercharge.

Charge Reconstitution doesn't stack. It only cares if you spend Charge, not how much you spent.

RaymondLi

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Re: The Trinity - Force Field, Aegis of Fate, Charge Reconsitution
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2013, 09:23:59 PM »

Charge Reconstitution doesn't stack. It only cares if you spend Charge, not how much you spent.

Good point. I made stupid mistake here. LoL
Anu belore dela'na

Ghostblade4802

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Re: The Trinity - Force Field, Aegis of Fate, Charge Reconsitution
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2013, 10:46:44 PM »

Charge Reconstitution doesn't stack. It only cares if you spend Charge, not how much you spent.

Good point. I made stupid mistake here. LoL

Well, you would naturally assume it stacks. I know I did. :/

Craftea

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Re: The Trinity - Force Field, Aegis of Fate, Charge Reconsitution
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2013, 06:24:39 AM »
I think Force field is already too strong only for damage absorption respect. So I don't understand why you said "flat value increased" here. (Unless you remove or nerf the charge addition)

Yep, I suggested that for the charge addition to be removed, in addition to the flat damage increase. I didn't want Force Field to be Charge-reliant, since Charge Reconstitution would already fill that niche.

I think only the sledgebot has HP and can die??? If thats the case the summoner buff is quite pointless. Also your changes for FF is devastating in a MP game. Imagine four engineers with no CD FF.

Personally, I'm not a fan of FF affecting other players as well. I'd rather that be completely removed (and I did initially plan to suggest that), but I changed my mind, since I feel that having party skills in a MP game is an important feature. Either way though, 4 Engineers with a no CD FF is the same as 1 Engineer with a no CD FF, isn't it? Further casts would only refresh the shield, as opposed to stacking more absorption onto it.

(If the no CD becomes an issue, a small CD could be imposed)

Imho there is no need to nerf the FF's effect, increasing the cost to maintain it is good enough. Double the mana cost, increase the CD to 10s and give a charge cost to free skills (emberquake, seismic slam etc). This way dedicated FF builds can still be strong defensively using all their charge to maintain it, attacking builds either need to nerf their damage to maintain FF or nerf FF to attack.

Currently, with the 8s CD, it is no issue going to full charge within a few seconds. It isn't too difficult to deploy a fully charged Force Field, since you could gain Charge so quickly. Giving it a high cooldown, means that FF-users will only need to bother gathering Charge for a few seconds and throw up their Force Field, before going fully offensive.

It wouldn't be that much of a nerf to any decent attacking build, considering that said builds would gain charge quicker than other builds (especially if its heavily tied into both their offense and defense). It would mean that the same stat boosts these builds offense and defense, which is poor design imo.

There is also another possibility, where every offensive charge-reliant build would simply neglect Force Field because it just doesn't work with a charge consuming offensive build. I wanted the option of Force Field to be open to all skill builds, with the deciding factor between each of the 3 defensive skills to be solely gear.

(And I deliberately didn't want any of these 3 defensive skill to use Charge for these reasons; Charge Recon procs when Charge is used, but itself doesn't consume any Charge)

Another issue here is that FF wouldn't scale at all. Once you hit Lv100, it would be at its strongest (supposedly), before gradually weakening as you progress through Tiers/Act 5. Keep in mind that Synergies has content for Lv100+ (as opposed to vanilla's content which caters to Lv1-Lv100).

This is especially relevant for FF's mechanics, which don't scale at all with anything. (unlike flat damage skills) Tagging a 10s CD, even if it requires a full charge bar, isn't much of 'scaling'. The values remain static, and this means that it will either be too good in earlier parts or too weak in later parts.

Also, in my earlier reply to Raymond, I feel that FF shouldn't be Charge-reliant, since Charge Reconstitution already fills that niche.

Quite like your idea for aegis but think % heal over time is more suitable for Charge Reconstitution. Instant heal is too powerful.

The problem with % Heal over time, is that it doesn't stack. (unless it can be somehow made to stack)

Instant heal is powerful, and yet the same the time, heals are still pretty weak in practice due to the tendency to get 1-shot. I feel that this should be tested first, and nerfed if necessary.

Personally, I think it is OP on paper, but it could still end up being useless in practice.

The only problem with the "occur on intervals" thing is you essentially end up with a mini-Forcefield active all the time. I assume the buff lasts forever (like Aegis) and just keeps refreshing on the interval. The alternative is to make the buff last only a certain amount of time before dissapating, and then a pause before getting it back, and that takes away the reliability.

Not that having a mini-Forcefield all the time isn't kind of awesome, and it would let you take a bigger risk by rushing into fights head-first and soaking up the initial damage, instead of waiting for a proc.

That's true. An interval proc Aegis of Fate is highly similar to Force Field. In a sense, it would replace the current Force Field.

(If it had a 8s proc duration, and reasonable damage absorption, it actually would be almost the same. Except, it is gear dependent.)

dreams

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Re: The Trinity - Force Field, Aegis of Fate, Charge Reconsitution
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2013, 07:42:33 AM »
Are you sure it just refreshes the shield in MP and not have 4 x FF? Even if it just refresh and only your changes are implemented, a MP means there are 4 charge bars to constantly rehash 1 FF. That is still OP.

First of all i think all would agree that flat value attack skills, heals, defensive skill should be changed to scale with the relevant stat so there no need to go deep into that here. The rest is just a difference of opinions. As i said before I dont think the defensive ability of FF is OP, it is OP as a skill because there is little to no cost to using it. Usually tanks are very good at def but poor at att, glass cannons are very good at att but poor at def and a balance build is good at everything. FF completely breaks that mold. There is next to no cost to use FF and just the skill alone makes the engi very strong defensively. The engi then proceeds to devote every single point/stat/mana to att and becoming very good at it. Personally i dont mind a build is OP strong at something as long as there is a clear weakness. A FF attacking engi is the perfect OP build because there is no weakness. Your changes doesnt change that.

Charge Reconstitution has a completely different niche to FF. While both are defensive, the way of using them is completely different. FF is most powerful when you save up all your charges for a single blow off. CR works best when you earn one you spend one, constant spending constant healing. See how the mentality is completely different.

Craftea

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Re: The Trinity - Force Field, Aegis of Fate, Charge Reconsitution
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2013, 07:56:22 AM »
Are you sure it just refreshes the shield in MP and not have 4 x FF? Even if it just refresh and only your changes are implemented, a MP means there are 4 charge bars to constantly rehash 1 FF. That is still OP.

My rendition of FF doesn't rely on Charge at all.

As i said before I dont think the defensive ability of FF is OP, it is OP as a skill because there is little to no cost to using it. Usually tanks are very good at def but poor at att, glass cannons are very good at att but poor at def and a balance build is good at everything. FF completely breaks that mold. There is next to no cost to use FF and just the skill alone makes the engi very strong defensively. The engi then proceeds to devote every single point/stat/mana to att and becoming very good at it. Personally i dont mind a build is OP strong at something as long as there is a clear weakness. A FF attacking engi is the perfect OP build because there is no weakness. Your changes doesnt change that.

I agree that Force Field fits into any build, and gear setup, which is never a good thing.

I feel that with a sufficiently steep mana cost, and with the long cast animation of Force Field (especially without the +50% faster cast Tier bonus), that it would only be usable by builds with the mana to spare, and ones that don't rely on spamming skills. (either that or they unrealistically have high cast speed and lots of mana? I guess that's another possibility)

I think the new Aegis would take up the role of the old Force Field, and new Aegis would scale with armor too.

Charge Reconstitution has a completely different niche to FF. While both are defensive, the way of using them is completely different. FF is most powerful when you save up all your charges for a single blow off. CR works best when you earn one you spend one, constant spending constant healing. See how the mentality is completely different.

That is true, however, I am also proposing for FF to have no/low cooldown (for reasons stated in my previous post, quoted below). If FF has no/low cooldown, it could be too similar to Charge Recon.

Currently, with the 8s CD, it is no issue going to full charge within a few seconds. It isn't too difficult to deploy a fully charged Force Field, since you could gain Charge so quickly. Giving it a high cooldown, means that FF-users will only need to bother gathering Charge for a few seconds and throw up their Force Field, before going fully offensive.

Thatmg7

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Re: The Trinity - Force Field, Aegis of Fate, Charge Reconsitution
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2015, 10:13:49 AM »
Force Field

Sucks in my view, dunno if it explained by what you said as early game its worthless but late its powerful I just don't see it. you take way too many hits for it to every last more than a second. An wastes charges.

Aegis of Fate

Is the opposite of the above i feel its amazing early game due to the fact that there are so many mobs hitting you.
I haven't seen if its worthless late game yet but could be.

Charge Reconstitution
is really good for me I based my build around AOF and this for the main game an tier 0. its really powerful.

I understand that the heal is a bit low however its main focus is to be used with skills that are spammable 1 charge.
As it becomes a free mini health pot. As getting charges is easy with other skills

An the 1 hit factor/large spike damage makes healing weak.

Bulwark is a skill I also used to raise the damage absorb i get from AOF

Its really good main game to tier 0.

I guess this is the issue at the heart of the engi.

You have skills that ever suck at one stage or are the defacto choice at another stage.

The difficulty would be to balance them so that they work for BOTH stages of play without creating some OP monster of a skill or inversely making the skills worthless at one point.

However again i think the paper suggestions are far far weaker than the actual game can handle.

Meaning what sound OP on paper isn't OP in practice
What sounds ok would be worthless in practice.

This is similar to why i posted that 25% base dr all classes wouldn't do much to the game, it sound great however in game not so much.

The engi does have some issues like non scaling skills and a lack of damage compared to other classes skill wise.

My advice is be extremely careful about changing main classes, as i think you should keep what the ideal of what the devs designed however making it better in relation to the mod. However still keeping the skill true to what it was/is.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2015, 10:27:24 AM by Thatmg7 »

potterman28wxcv

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Re: The Trinity - Force Field, Aegis of Fate, Charge Reconsitution
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2015, 02:50:58 PM »
Force Field

Sucks in my view, dunno if it explained by what you said as early game its worthless but late its powerful I just don't see it. you take way too many hits for it to every last more than a second. An wastes charges.

Put 15/15 on Charge Domination, or put 15/15 in Dynamo Field, and the expression "wasting charges" will not exist anymore for you

Aegis of Fate

Is the opposite of the above i feel its amazing early game due to the fact that there are so many mobs hitting you.
I haven't seen if its worthless late game yet but could be.
What's your difficulty setting you are playing ? I find it useful only in the first Act, and maybe in the second Act. After that, it's just some extra health and that's all, while Forcefield brings you a lot more shield.

Charge Reconstitution
is really good for me I based my build around AOF and this for the main game an tier 0. its really powerful.
What gear do you have, and what build are you using ?