Author Topic: Focus #1 -- The Berserker  (Read 12426 times)

Salan

  • Synergies Developer
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12687
Focus #1 -- The Berserker
« on: September 28, 2013, 03:21:21 AM »
What do I need to do to bring the berserker inline with SynergiesMOD's changed dynamics and balance.  Both in what doesn't work and what works TOO much.

we'll use this thread for discussion, and hopefully come to a majority agreement on what should be done.   I would simply do this myself, but as we know, I don't have time to research vanilla classes, so I ask you, the people who are passionate about this topic, to help.



THIS MESSAGE WILL BE TO DETERMINE WHICH OF THE BERSERKERS SKILLS WE SHOULD BE LOOKING AT, call this the catagorizing message.  Next we'll talk about each one individually.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 03:50:27 AM by Salan »
People motivate themselves, and are inspired by others.
--- I love making FUN encounters, the ones that make you scream with terror, and remember them forever! ---
**more awesome then an awesome possum**

Salan

  • Synergies Developer
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12687
Re: Focus #1 -- The Berserker
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2013, 03:51:47 AM »
Static damage skills, do they scale with the changes?

can't think atm, editored out for the night.. post any skills we SHOULD consider upgrading or balancing, then we will discuss them individually if I assess the need is true.
People motivate themselves, and are inspired by others.
--- I love making FUN encounters, the ones that make you scream with terror, and remember them forever! ---
**more awesome then an awesome possum**

ytdulu

  • Synergies Focus Group
  • Sr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 282
Re: Focus #1 -- The Berserker
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2013, 03:54:19 AM »
Well, firstly Iceshield should be nerfed. Tier bonus are 75%, 100%, 125%. That means you only need to invest 10 points and you have 100% to reflect missiles. I think it should be max at 75% or even less at tier 3. Like 25%, 50%, 75% or similar. Right now if you put one point in Iceshield it starts at 55%, thats ridiculous!

Also I hate that some passives doesn`t scale well and only requires 1 points to invest and you are done with that passive.
Passives that not worth invest more then 1 point:
- Blood Hunger
- Shatter Storm (pretty 'op', 1 point and you have 100% to immobolize)
- Rage Retaliation (this skill is tricky, maby need to rework. Mostly only 1 point is enough, but 160% dmg at 15 rank is quite huge)
- Frenzy Mastery (this skill is almost is useless, since you are allways full charge then fighting)
- Red Wolf (I think it scales with focus, but more then 1 point is enough)

In general, mostly all passives are not worth to invest more then 1 point, since you get enough boost by only investing 1 point to skill. Passives should attract you (have potential) like attack skills to invest points to them.
Synergies elite hardcore progress: defeated all bosses up to tier 0,5.

Salan

  • Synergies Developer
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12687
Re: Focus #1 -- The Berserker
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2013, 03:58:35 AM »
perfect, and I agree with a lot of it.. we'll break it into individual messages to make sure we don't miss any info on each one.
People motivate themselves, and are inspired by others.
--- I love making FUN encounters, the ones that make you scream with terror, and remember them forever! ---
**more awesome then an awesome possum**

Craftea

  • Synergies Focus Group
  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 207
Re: Focus #1 -- The Berserker
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2013, 05:49:58 AM »
Blood Hunger procs provide a 1s non-stacking Heal buff, based on % HP. Honestly, with how much this class crits, the heal duration is largely irrelevant. The increase per level is extremely low, although the first level gives you 5% (? I think it is 5%), and subsequent levels add 0.5%. Perhaps it could scale more linearly to begin with.

I think the main purpose of leveling Rage Retaliation is to get to the Lv15, where there is no cooldown on the skill at all. I think this ends up being a skill where either 1 or 15 points are invested in it. Not too sure what could be done to fix this. (P.S.: If I recall correctly, this also only works at melee range)

Frenzy Mastery could even be left at 0 points, because end game damage is so high that you quickly get a full charge bar immediately after losing it......

Red Wolf scales with FOC, and procs every time you crit. However, it only hits melee targets. Builds fully utilizing Red Wolf are possible, although it is also equally possible to splash 1 point into other builds; I think this could easily be fixed by causing the damage to scale linearly - I don't think this would cause many early game problems for Red Wolf builds.

Another skill that falls into the 1 point wonder category would be Rampage, since the only thing that scales on Rampage is the % chance to proc on kill. It applies a non-stacking buff, and on Synergies with the higher monster count, you tend to have Rampage up more often than not (if you progress quickly enough, and with a decent killing build).

ytdulu

  • Synergies Focus Group
  • Sr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 282
Re: Focus #1 -- The Berserker
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2013, 06:01:09 AM »
Also Stormclaw needs buff. Its quite helping at begining from 1~40 level. But as buff skill in endgame its not worth to invest more then 1 point. Tier bonus are complete garbage, you have so many other options that do mass aoe.

Quote
Another skill that falls into the 1 point wonder category would be Rampage, since the only thing that scales on Rampage is the % chance to proc on kill. It applies a non-stacking buff, and on Synergies with the higher monster count, you tend to have Rampage up more often than not (if you progress quickly enough, and with a decent killing build).
Yeah, forgot to mention that skill too.
Rampage proc pretty well as you said. And its not worth to invest. First point gives you 5%, that proc nice then crowded.

Shadow skill tree is weakest comparing to other tress.
There are possibility to minion build, but minion skills are very weak.
- Shadowbind and Wolfpack needs to rework.
- Chain Snare don`t see any point on this skill.

Skills that not worth to invest more then 5 points:
- Shadow Burst
- Savage Rush

Haven`t tested that well Storm Hatchet skill, but as first look its quite bad.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 06:10:27 AM by ytdulu »
Synergies elite hardcore progress: defeated all bosses up to tier 0,5.

dreams

  • Synergies Focus Group
  • Sr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 477
Re: Focus #1 -- The Berserker
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2013, 06:18:32 AM »
Agree mostly so far, just some variations.

Ice shield. First to clarify things, the tiers are the reflect damage bonus, not the reflect chance. Agree with change not because i feel it is OP but that it is ridiculous that no one needs to put more than 10 points into the skill. So just change the reflect chance to scale better, at maybe 5% percent per point.

Battle standard. Another good skill that no one maxes. Some will put 5 points for the increase mana recovery or some 10 points for bigger range but rarely 15 points unless you have too much to spare. Suggest to change the mana recovery to 5% at tier 1, 1% per point to tier 2 and 2% per point to tier 3.

Blood hunger. Everyone puts only 1 point because the rest of the points is not cost efficient. Cant just lower the % or it be too sucky at low levels, maybe change the heal to a flat amount + % that scales with points. 50 +1% to 750 +15% etc.

Shatter Storm. The immoblization to start at 10% and +5% per point.

Rage Retaliation. When hit abilities dont really work in this game, possible to rework into all attackers take % of their attack? Can only proc every y secs.

Frenzy Mastery. Needs a boost. Maybe add a +% damage per point.

Red Wolf. Yes scales with FOC. Mainly for melee builds. It works fine for builds build for it.

Rampage. Ya its synergies fault that procs too often with the higher density. Maybe nerf the proc chance but add in crit chance to make it more attractive.

Stormclaw. Basically this only helps auto attack builds with AOE, not very useful for all other builds. Maybe add a sucking mechanism to help the auto attacking builds.

Lastly basically all the flat value skills must be change to scale with the relevant stats so that they can work with future tiers.

ytdulu

  • Synergies Focus Group
  • Sr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 282
Re: Focus #1 -- The Berserker
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2013, 06:20:16 AM »
- Wolfstrike. No point to invest on this skill. You got other possibilies to move forward/escape like Shadow Burst or Savage Rush that do way more better effects.
- Rupture. Can`t see any way to make this work with your build.

Mainly if you are berseker, your builds are these:
-DW, your main skill is Ravage.
-2H: Ravage, Raze.
-1H/Shield: Northern Rage, Raze, Eviscerate.

That means other skills that Rupture, Wolfstrike, Glacial Shatter, Storm Hatchet, Shadowbind, Chain Snare, Wolfpack are not used. They could be used but if try to focus on these skill as your main you will do very low damage and you are quite weak comparing to main builds.
Synergies elite hardcore progress: defeated all bosses up to tier 0,5.

ytdulu

  • Synergies Focus Group
  • Sr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 282
Re: Focus #1 -- The Berserker
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2013, 06:24:42 AM »
Quote
Battle standard. Another good skill that no one maxes. Some will put 5 points for the increase mana recovery or some 10 points for bigger range but rarely 15 points unless you have too much to spare. Suggest to change the mana recovery to 5% at tier 1, 1% per point to tier 2 and 2% per point to tier 3.

Almost everyone gets to 10 point, rarely to 5. But tier 3 bonus is garbage. You won`t stay in same place for 50 seconds. Does this 'mana' bug fixed? Haven`t tryed it.
Synergies elite hardcore progress: defeated all bosses up to tier 0,5.

Craftea

  • Synergies Focus Group
  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 207
Re: Focus #1 -- The Berserker
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2013, 07:10:37 AM »
Rampage. Ya its synergies fault that procs too often with the higher density. Maybe nerf the proc chance but add in crit chance to make it more attractive.

Lastly basically all the flat value skills must be change to scale with the relevant stats so that they can work with future tiers.

Crit chance is moot for Berserker, due to the Charge bar.

Honestly, Berserker's Charge bar is way too good. It's very difficult to get a high crit chance, but Berserkers just have a full 100% chance to crit most of the time. Another reason is that it gets to full charge too quickly...... Frenzy Mastery is near irrelevant.

Flat value skills already scale with FOC, unless you mean that they should also scale with another stat.

Stormclaw is weak because there is very little support for purely autoattacking builds. The stats that do affect autoattacks, usually affect WDPS as well, which equally favor casting builds that also scale with cast speed, and/or outright do more damage.

dreams

  • Synergies Focus Group
  • Sr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 477
Re: Focus #1 -- The Berserker
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2013, 07:30:38 AM »
- Wolfstrike. No point to invest on this skill. You got other possibilies to move forward/escape like Shadow Burst or Savage Rush that do way more better effects.
- Rupture. Can`t see any way to make this work with your build.

Mainly if you are berseker, your builds are these:
-DW, your main skill is Ravage.
-2H: Ravage, Raze.
-1H/Shield: Northern Rage, Raze, Eviscerate.

That means other skills that Rupture, Wolfstrike, Glacial Shatter, Storm Hatchet, Shadowbind, Chain Snare, Wolfpack are not used. They could be used but if try to focus on these skill as your main you will do very low damage and you are quite weak comparing to main builds.

Rupture, wolfpack. The bererker's most damaging skills. Main skill material.
Storm Hatchet. Very good long range charge builder for mage zerkers since northern range and permafrost cant build charge.
Shadowbind. Makes any skill become AOE plus 43% damage increase.
Chain Snare. Good utility skill. Draws mobs in, shatters shields, for melee.
Wolfstrike, Glacial Shatter. Not used them enough to make any comments. But they dont look bad to me, its just that there are too many good zerker skills.

dreams

  • Synergies Focus Group
  • Sr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 477
Re: Focus #1 -- The Berserker
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2013, 07:42:59 AM »
Crit chance is moot for Berserker, due to the Charge bar.

Honestly, Berserker's Charge bar is way too good. It's very difficult to get a high crit chance, but Berserkers just have a full 100% chance to crit most of the time. Another reason is that it gets to full charge too quickly...... Frenzy Mastery is near irrelevant.

Flat value skills already scale with FOC, unless you mean that they should also scale with another stat.

Stormclaw is weak because there is very little support for purely autoattacking builds. The stats that do affect autoattacks, usually affect WDPS as well, which equally favor casting builds that also scale with cast speed, and/or outright do more damage.

Not every zerker build can build charge. Northern rage, permafrost, wolfpack etc most of the range attacks cant. They will either use stormhatchet to build charge or ignore charge and just stack crit chance.

Every skill scale with FOC or STR. What i mean is that flat value skills stop growing after lvl100 while %wdps continue to grow with higher tier weapons. All flat value skills need to be changed to grow with stats or they will become useless at tierX. Example your 10k heal for 20k HP is very good at tier0 but at tier5 where everyone has maybe 100K HP it is less so.

Maybe you misunderstand my sucking mechanism statement. I mean maybe make stormclaw have a magnetic effect drawing in enemies. Make them crowd around which would help with the lighting, red wolf, shatter storm procs. All auto attack mechanism.

RaymondLi

  • Synergies Focus Group
  • Sr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 377
Re: Focus #1 -- The Berserker
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2013, 08:34:03 AM »
Storm Hatchet is the main source of charge for the ranged build i.e. wolfpack. And its damage is also quite considerable when it's close enough. (I myself only do lv 10 to get tier 2 bonus: 3 hatchet per cast)

Rupture, because of a brief delay, many people don't take a look at all. At lv 15, it has a flat physics damage of ~12960, which is one of highest flat damage skill in the game. But it's hard to use due to its brief delay (make it can not spam and you cannot kill the monster you give the rupture debuff to or it won't blow it out).
I do have a build on rupture and spell trigger wolfpack.
I think to take most advantage of rupture, one need to have combine howl and shadowbind, and put stat points mainly on Focus.

Right now from the information Salan gave me,  all the flat damage skills are still amplified by focus*0.5% instead of the diminishing return. So if you have 500% crit damage and 500 Focus, the lv 15 rupture can make a 270k AoE damage within the 7 m radius (without Howl and bind).  It's not a weak skill.

Another thing is Ice Shield.
Yes it looks very strong and most case you only need to put 10 pts in.
According to my own test, 100% is not 100% to every monster. It may refer to those below player's level.
i.e. I go to DK hub and use lv 10 Ice shield, and I still get ranged kill sometime. (although very few)
Suggestion on this is not actually nerf this skill too much. Maybe Salan can consider to make a new affixes can somehow ignore reflect like those which can ignore the block.
Ice shield reflection damage can trigger blood hunger, which is not bad but need to be taken into discussion.









 



« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 08:45:35 AM by RaymondLi »
Anu belore dela'na

ytdulu

  • Synergies Focus Group
  • Sr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 282
Re: Focus #1 -- The Berserker
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2013, 08:41:09 AM »
Rampage. Ya its synergies fault that procs too often with the higher density. Maybe nerf the proc chance but add in crit chance to make it more attractive.

Lastly basically all the flat value skills must be change to scale with the relevant stats so that they can work with future tiers.

Crit chance is moot for Berserker, due to the Charge bar.

Honestly, Berserker's Charge bar is way too good. It's very difficult to get a high crit chance, but Berserkers just have a full 100% chance to crit most of the time. Another reason is that it gets to full charge too quickly...... Frenzy Mastery is near irrelevant.

Flat value skills already scale with FOC, unless you mean that they should also scale with another stat.

Stormclaw is weak because there is very little support for purely autoattacking builds. The stats that do affect autoattacks, usually affect WDPS as well, which equally favor casting builds that also scale with cast speed, and/or outright do more damage.

Agree that charge bar is way to powerful. 100% crit chance then on full charge is tremendous. I think it should give % crit chance then on full charge not 100%. Since you allways with full charge then you start battle, only requires few hits (with 2h even less).
Synergies elite hardcore progress: defeated all bosses up to tier 0,5.

ytdulu

  • Synergies Focus Group
  • Sr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 282
Re: Focus #1 -- The Berserker
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2013, 08:43:08 AM »
Quote
Another thing is Ice Shield.
Yes it looks very strong and most case you only need to put 10 pts in.
According to my own test, 100% is not 100% to every monster. It may refer to those below player's level.
i.e. I go to DK hub and use lv 10 Ice shield, and I still get ranged kill sometime. (although very few)
Suggestion on this is not actually nerf this skill too much. Maybe Salan can consider to make a new affixes can somehow ignore reflect like those which can ignore the block.
Ice shield reflection damage can trigger blood hunger, which is not bad but need to be taken into discussion.

Some skills bypass iceshield and its not like 100%, it is 100%. You are permanent immune to ranger attacks and its not enough, they die (pretty fast) by attacking you!
« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 08:44:59 AM by ytdulu »
Synergies elite hardcore progress: defeated all bosses up to tier 0,5.