Author Topic: FOCUS 1C: Frenzy Mastery  (Read 9421 times)

BlooDLotuS

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Re: FOCUS 1C: Frenzy Mastery
« Reply #45 on: October 06, 2013, 06:24:31 AM »
Considering that blood hunger that is so crucial to the zerkers survival only procs during crits, killing the 100% frenzy crit chance would seriously impact their survivability early game. Is 100% crit really that strong? ??? I think most of the end game players has around 60% to 70% crit chance where it is already high enough that most hits crits. The 100% dont really makes a difference end game.

It IS crucial yeah, but hardly ever better than 1 pt.
Maxing Shadow Burst for e.g gives damage, way more HPregen, mobility and shield break.

Also, don't think it's THAT strong, more a case of the others being weaker.

ENG's is fine thanks to the dreaded OP FF, although A LOT more skills could be made to influence/be influenced by Charges; underutilised IMO, that's why everyone always goes FF, since there's nothing better.

Embermage's charge is handy no doubt, but that's it, since you end up having tons of mana anyways due to Focus.

Outlander's charge is decent, but not spectacular either.

Craftea

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Re: FOCUS 1C: Frenzy Mastery
« Reply #46 on: October 07, 2013, 07:42:05 AM »
Is 100% crit really that strong? ??? I think most of the end game players has around 60% to 70% crit chance where it is already high enough that most hits crits. The 100% dont really makes a difference end game.

I'm not looking at the 100% crit chance from a balance point of view; I'm looking at it from a mechanical point of view.

It reduces the relevancy of DEX, and +% Crit chance. The fact that Berserkers can (for most intents and purposes) ignore Crit chance (and to a lesser extent, related affixes) fundamentally undermines some of the game's mechanics.

I guess you could argue it from a point of balance, where Embermages can mostly ignore Mana related affixes, and Outlanders can neglect Dodge related affixes, so it somehow balances out? Maybe?

There's a lot of grey area in between here, where there shouldn't have to be. If we're granting a large amount of "stats" boosts to certain classes, we need to be fair and apply them across the board for there to be balance. Or else one class is going to have an edge in gear, from being able to completely neglect an affix.

But then there's also the problem where, maybe, a certain affix is more 'valuable' than another, and so on and so forth.

My point is that, each character should be allowed to have a certain level of "stats" boosts available to them but not to the point where certain mechanics become irrelevant.


But there's also a balance perspective on this too.

I can agree that Frenzy isn't 'OP', in comparison to the rest of the classes.

People argue that the Engineer shouldn't be allowed Force Field because it gives them too much survivability (+HP); isn't Berserker's Frenzy a parallel with Crit chance? Isn't Embermage's Charge Bar a parallel with Mana? Isn't Outlander with its Dodge Mastery, and Share the Wealth highly similar with Dodge chance?

If the Berserker retains the 100% Crit chance on Frenzy, then the rest of the classes (by definition) should retain their class-specific steroids stat boosts too.

Because, if I'm allowed to get away with no gear dedicated to survivability as an Engineer, I should too be able to get away with no gear dedicated to Crit chance as a Berserker, and Mana as an Embermage, and Dodge as an Outlander.

Unless, there is a practical way to ensure that each stat are of similar worth i.e. +HP (Force Field), Crit Chance (Frenzy), Mana (Embermage), and Dodge (Outlander), and that all other future classes will have a similar stat boost.

dreams

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Re: FOCUS 1C: Frenzy Mastery
« Reply #47 on: October 07, 2013, 08:38:05 AM »
Is 100% crit really that strong? ??? I think most of the end game players has around 60% to 70% crit chance where it is already high enough that most hits crits. The 100% dont really makes a difference end game.

I'm not looking at the 100% crit chance from a balance point of view; I'm looking at it from a mechanical point of view.

It reduces the relevancy of DEX, and +% Crit chance. The fact that Berserkers can (for most intents and purposes) ignore Crit chance (and to a lesser extent, related affixes) fundamentally undermines some of the game's mechanics.

I guess you could argue it from a point of balance, where Embermages can mostly ignore Mana related affixes, and Outlanders can neglect Dodge related affixes, so it somehow balances out? Maybe?

There's a lot of grey area in between here, where there shouldn't have to be. If we're granting a large amount of "stats" boosts to certain classes, we need to be fair and apply them across the board for there to be balance. Or else one class is going to have an edge in gear, from being able to completely neglect an affix.

But then there's also the problem where, maybe, a certain affix is more 'valuable' than another, and so on and so forth.

My point is that, each character should be allowed to have a certain level of "stats" boosts available to them but not to the point where certain mechanics become irrelevant.

While I understand what you are saying in theory, but is it true in actual practice? I find it to be to be the opposite, at least in my case. In elite in order to survive you basically you need to "max" all your defensive options. That means i need to get my dodge to at least 60% or even higher if i am not using a shield. And to get there gear is usually not enough and i need to dedicate quite abit of points into dex. By the time i get enough dodge my crit is usually quite decent such that i dont really care for my zerker's charge and the charge bar becomes moot. Is this is the case for everyone or is what Craftea said the norm?


But there's also a balance perspective on this too.

I can agree that Frenzy isn't 'OP', in comparison to the rest of the classes.

People argue that the Engineer shouldn't be allowed Force Field because it gives them too much survivability (+HP); isn't Berserker's Frenzy a parallel with Crit chance? Isn't Embermage's Charge Bar a parallel with Mana? Isn't Outlander with its Dodge Mastery, and Share the Wealth highly similar with Dodge chance?

If the Berserker retains the 100% Crit chance on Frenzy, then the rest of the classes (by definition) should retain their class-specific steroids stat boosts too.

Because, if I'm allowed to get away with no gear dedicated to survivability as an Engineer, I should too be able to get away with no gear dedicated to Crit chance as a Berserker, and Mana as an Embermage, and Dodge as an Outlander.

Unless, there is a practical way to ensure that each stat are of similar worth i.e. +HP (Force Field), Crit Chance (Frenzy), Mana (Embermage), and Dodge (Outlander), and that all other future classes will have a similar stat boost.

The biggest difference between FF and the other 3 is that the "free 64k HP" FF effect isnt achievable with gear while you can realistically get 100% crit, sufficient mana and max dodge with gear. Thats why everyone agrees that FF is OP and should be nerf, while the rest are just advantages that is unique to each class.

Ghostblade4802

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Re: FOCUS 1C: Frenzy Mastery
« Reply #48 on: October 07, 2013, 10:35:54 AM »
Considering DEX increases Dodge and reduces Fumble, as well as providing early access to armour that requires DEX, and giving you crit during your Frenzy downtime, the argument that Frenzy makes Dexterity totally irrelevant on Berzerkers is silly.

This is why I think making it harder to build is the best option - Frenzy is so easy to get, the 100% crit becomes trivial.

Salan

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Re: FOCUS 1C: Frenzy Mastery
« Reply #49 on: October 07, 2013, 11:37:41 AM »


While I understand what you are saying in theory, but is it true in actual practice? I find it to be to be the opposite, at least in my case. In elite in order to survive you basically you need to "max" all your defensive options. That means i need to get my dodge to at least 60% or even higher if i am not using a shield. And to get there gear is usually not enough and i need to dedicate quite abit of points into dex. By the time i get enough dodge my crit is usually quite decent such that i dont really care for my zerker's charge and the charge bar becomes moot. Is this is the case for everyone or is what Craftea said the norm?



actually this is where I build my characters too, even my necromancer I try to get enough dex to pump up my dodge and natural crit by default.  Its about surviving that one hit that would have put me down with the way the game works.  I don't aim for higher damage, I let the items give me that, I aim for the survivability first, and enjoy the ride more.

Quote

But there's also a balance perspective on this too.

I can agree that Frenzy isn't 'OP', in comparison to the rest of the classes.

People argue that the Engineer shouldn't be allowed Force Field because it gives them too much survivability (+HP); isn't Berserker's Frenzy a parallel with Crit chance? Isn't Embermage's Charge Bar a parallel with Mana? Isn't Outlander with its Dodge Mastery, and Share the Wealth highly similar with Dodge chance?

If the Berserker retains the 100% Crit chance on Frenzy, then the rest of the classes (by definition) should retain their class-specific steroids stat boosts too.

Because, if I'm allowed to get away with no gear dedicated to survivability as an Engineer, I should too be able to get away with no gear dedicated to Crit chance as a Berserker, and Mana as an Embermage, and Dodge as an Outlander.

Unless, there is a practical way to ensure that each stat are of similar worth i.e. +HP (Force Field), Crit Chance (Frenzy), Mana (Embermage), and Dodge (Outlander), and that all other future classes will have a similar stat boost.

The biggest difference between FF and the other 3 is that the "free 64k HP" FF effect isnt achievable with gear while you can realistically get 100% crit, sufficient mana and max dodge with gear. Thats why everyone agrees that FF is OP and should be nerf, while the rest are just advantages that is unique to each class.

One thing for sure I will never balance a class based on the others.  We look at the class vs the enviroment only.  I could care less what engineer can do when we talk about berserkers.  We'll go through each class individually for a reason.
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Salan

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Re: FOCUS 1C: Frenzy Mastery
« Reply #50 on: October 07, 2013, 11:52:02 AM »
I think we have all put our opinions in sufficently on Frenzy mastery. 

I think it is a very important part of the berserker.  It is useless to some builds, it is extremely important to others.  Nerfing it isn't the answer because it effects the class in so many different unforseen ways that its not like a immobilization or missile reflect.

Mainstream builds make it a 1 point wonder and that is partially because of the charge gain, but lowering the charge gain cripples non charge gaining builds, amongst other side effects.  the idea isn't to change the berserkers play style, but find ways of improving things that could use it, or slightly tweaking those that are simply out of whack compared to the content we play in.

Some serious discussions and I really appreciate everyone's view.  I will point out that I am trying to be open minded about what we are doing.  For instance I don't agree with craftea's points above but I am still considering them when I form my own opinion.   My opposition is not meant to cause Craftea to dislike the process, any discussion has multiple sides in it and while I dissagree with the looking at other classes while discussing this one, it does remind me very strongly that the game is built upon large benifits across the board.  The Idea of this group and bringing things to par with synergies isn't to nerf the crap out of that benifit.

So I am going to close this one, and re-read all the points again, and see if there is anything in the discussion that is definite on what I can and should be looking at and what I shouldn't be looking at doing.

People motivate themselves, and are inspired by others.
--- I love making FUN encounters, the ones that make you scream with terror, and remember them forever! ---
**more awesome then an awesome possum**