Author Topic: Focus 1f: flat damage skills, potential scaling  (Read 4787 times)

Salan

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Focus 1f: flat damage skills, potential scaling
« on: October 09, 2013, 01:46:49 PM »
Flat damage skills of berserker

Direct Damage:
Rupture, part of Northen Rage, part of Wolfpack, Red Wolf, Glacial Shatter
DoT/Bleeding:
Eviscerate, Savage Rush, Permafrost




These skills currently don't scale beyond their flat amounts.  I need to test, does the number go up with player level, or effect level (skill point invested).

And which should get better scaling for the enviroment, as well as if the scaling is to be based on stats or just an increase.

things to note, does it proc life/mana steal? Does it allow procs ?  does it NOT allow procs?  Is there another damage component to the spell making up for this non scaling fact?
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RaymondLi

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Re: Focus 1f: flat damage skills, potential scaling
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2013, 06:59:30 PM »
All the DoT/bleeding damage is way too low in the endgame (because they are un-stack-able and substracted by armor per tick?) 
(Not only for berserkers but also for other vanilla classes)
Do note they cannot be amplified by Howl, Frost Breath or spreaded by Shadowbind.

Rupture is good enough despite a 1s waiting time, which makes a lot of people ignore this powerful skill (cannot spam, and cannot kill the one with the rupture debuff).

Red Wolf has a internal CD of 1 second and each time only 2 wolves. Maybe need some more wolves as tier bonuses.

Flat damage of Glacial Shatter and Northern Rage needs some buff IMO, while Wolfpack needs some nerf (or maybe nerf its %WDPS part).

Each geyser of Glacial Shatter may need a bigger hit radius. (Same requirement here for engineer's fusillade)


« Last Edit: October 09, 2013, 07:06:31 PM by RaymondLi »
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Craftea

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Re: Focus 1f: flat damage skills, potential scaling
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2013, 08:35:08 AM »
All the DoT/bleeding damage is way too low in the endgame (because they are un-stack-able and substracted by armor per tick?) 
(Not only for berserkers but also for other vanilla classes)

I was under the impression that DoT/bleed damage are unaffected by armor. Skill DoTs/bleeds tend to not stack, although iirc item based DoT affixes do. (although that bit is irrelevant :P)

Red Wolf has a internal CD of 1 second and each time only 2 wolves. Maybe need some more wolves as tier bonuses.

From my experience, Red Wolf doesn't have a cooldown? At least not a 1s one. It appears to proc on every hit for me. I might not be hitting quick enough to be capped by any internal CD though.

Wolfpack needs some nerf (or maybe nerf its %WDPS part).

Wolfpack has a WDPS and flat damage component. I think the flat damage component should go.

RaymondLi

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Re: Focus 1f: flat damage skills, potential scaling
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2013, 10:10:16 AM »
Quote
I was under the impression that DoT/bleed damage are unaffected by armor. Skill DoTs/bleeds tend to not stack, although iirc item based DoT affixes do. (although that bit is irrelevant :P)
Actually DoT/bleed damage are still affected by armor. Try to hit a lv 100 dummy on Table Mountain, and a 0 armor dummy sold by Selrock merchant. The damage is quite different.  You will see your firestorm, permafrost, cursed dagger, dynamo field etc dealing no damage to the lv 100 dummy at all. Since they cannot stack, I hope all these skills can get a bit buffed, it won't change too much.

Quote
Wolfpack has a WDPS and flat damage component. I think the flat damage component should go.

Then you need to make its wdps part re-scale with skill level as well. (lv1 0%+flat damamge, each level+5%)
This needs some more discussion.

Quote
From my experience, Red Wolf doesn't have a cooldown? At least not a 1s one. It appears to proc on every hit for me. I might not be hitting quick enough to be capped by any internal CD though.
It does have CD. Maybe the red wolf face animation duration on targets makes you think that way.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 10:12:48 AM by RaymondLi »
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Craftea

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Re: Focus 1f: flat damage skills, potential scaling
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2013, 11:23:17 AM »
Quote
Wolfpack has a WDPS and flat damage component. I think the flat damage component should go.

Then you need to make its wdps part re-scale with skill level as well. (lv1 0%+flat damamge, each level+5%)
This needs some more discussion.

Wolfpack is a little touchy.... the WDPS component is so small that it makes scaling difficult. Perhaps scaling the number of wolves as well? Have an initial WDPS of 45%, and scale up to 70%, with every 3 levels adding wolves? Something like that perhaps?

Quote
From my experience, Red Wolf doesn't have a cooldown? At least not a 1s one. It appears to proc on every hit for me. I might not be hitting quick enough to be capped by any internal CD though.
It does have CD. Maybe the red wolf face animation duration on targets makes you think that way.

Perhaps an alternative would be to lower/remove the cooldown?

I think it depends on what role Red Wolf is going to play in builds.

If it is meant as a primary damage skill, then I think lowering/removing the cooldown is the better route.
If it is meant as a passive to supplement damage, then I think the damage/number of hits should be buffed up.

I'm not sure if there is an in between here.

RaymondLi

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Re: Focus 1f: flat damage skills, potential scaling
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2013, 11:57:59 AM »

Perhaps an alternative would be to lower/remove the cooldown?

I think it depends on what role Red Wolf is going to play in builds.

If it is meant as a primary damage skill, then I think lowering/removing the cooldown is the better route.
If it is meant as a passive to supplement damage, then I think the damage/number of hits should be buffed up.

I'm not sure if there is an in between here.

I think most of builds would use it as a supplement. And it seems not easily to change those internal CD mechanism. IMO quite a lot of on hit passives work with a 1s CD. (brands, red wolves, rage retaliation, etc)
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dreams

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Re: Focus 1f: flat damage skills, potential scaling
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2013, 06:04:59 PM »
Quote
Wolfpack has a WDPS and flat damage component. I think the flat damage component should go.

Then you need to make its wdps part re-scale with skill level as well. (lv1 0%+flat damamge, each level+5%)
This needs some more discussion.

Wolfpack is a little touchy.... the WDPS component is so small that it makes scaling difficult. Perhaps scaling the number of wolves as well? Have an initial WDPS of 45%, and scale up to 70%, with every 3 levels adding wolves? Something like that perhaps?


The skill itself is fine. There is no need to rework the skill, no one even mentioned it during the whole zerker discussion. It just needs to be more futureproof, making the flat value portion scale with maybe FOC.


Perhaps an alternative would be to lower/remove the cooldown?

I think it depends on what role Red Wolf is going to play in builds.

If it is meant as a primary damage skill, then I think lowering/removing the cooldown is the better route.
If it is meant as a passive to supplement damage, then I think the damage/number of hits should be buffed up.

I'm not sure if there is an in between here.

I think most of builds would use it as a supplement. And it seems not easily to change those internal CD mechanism. IMO quite a lot of on hit passives work with a 1s CD. (brands, red wolves, rage retaliation, etc)

I think the 1s CD is the sweet spot. Removing the CD is totally out of the question. Imagine a glacial spike with 100% proc rate, toooo OP.
Damage wise I think it is ok, its average damage is around 3300. Slightly lower than the elemental brands (which we have people complaining they are too OP) at around 4400.

Craftea

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Re: Focus 1f: flat damage skills, potential scaling
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2013, 11:48:13 PM »
The skill itself is fine. There is no need to rework the skill, no one even mentioned it during the whole zerker discussion. It just needs to be more futureproof, making the flat value portion scale with maybe FOC.

The flat and WDPS portions both scale with FOC, although the flat damage portion deals lower damage than most flat damage skills. The number of wolves spawned makes up for it, until armor outstrips the flat damage.

I think the 1s CD is the sweet spot. Removing the CD is totally out of the question. Imagine a glacial spike with 100% proc rate, toooo OP.

Red Wolf procs at melee range, and only on Crits. Red Wolf has a cooldown of 1s.

Glacial Spike procs at any range, so long it is a hit, and on any type of attack that would allow it to proc. Glacial Spike (and all spell triggers, iirc) have a cooldown of 0.05s.

Glacial Spike deals ice damage, while Red Wolf deals physical damage. The availability of +% Ice damage, and the lack of +% Physical damage comes into play here.

Glacial Spike deals AOE damage, whereas Red Wolf hits "up to 2 targets". This means Glacial Spike is more likely to hit more targets.

Glacial Spike inflicts both Freeze and Immobilize, whereas Red Wolf doesn't inflict any affix.

Red Wolf has a (generally) higher proc rate than Glacial Spike, on most Berserker builds that would choose to invest heavily in it.

But Glacial Spike procs are only available via weapon sockets/as weapon affix, while Red Wolf is a skill.

Damage wise I think it is ok, its average damage is around 3300. Slightly lower than the elemental brands (which we have people complaining they are too OP) at around 4400.

The Elemental Brands proc off any damage (exclude DoTs) so long as the respective affixes are on the targets. They are single target, and deal their respective Elemental damage. They have a different range, damage type, and proc condition. It is not fair to just directly compare their damage as a point of balance.

Salan

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Re: Focus 1f: flat damage skills, potential scaling
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2013, 02:52:54 PM »
that is some really reasonable arguments craftea..
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dreams

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Re: Focus 1f: flat damage skills, potential scaling
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2013, 07:24:09 AM »
The skill itself is fine. There is no need to rework the skill, no one even mentioned it during the whole zerker discussion. It just needs to be more futureproof, making the flat value portion scale with maybe FOC.

The flat and WDPS portions both scale with FOC, although the flat damage portion deals lower damage than most flat damage skills. The number of wolves spawned makes up for it, until armor outstrips the flat damage.

Yes they are both boasted by FOC. But as your gear grows from tier1 to tier 2 to tier 3, your %WDPS will get stronger even if your FOC doesnt change simply because your weapon will get stronger. While your 1500 dmg flat value portion will remain 1500 dmg no matter how you change your gear. If nothing is done to make the flat value number increase according to a stat, flat value skills will become obselete as we move up the tier.

I think the 1s CD is the sweet spot. Removing the CD is totally out of the question. Imagine a glacial spike with 100% proc rate, toooo OP.

Red Wolf procs at melee range, and only on Crits. Red Wolf has a cooldown of 1s.

Glacial Spike procs at any range, so long it is a hit, and on any type of attack that would allow it to proc. Glacial Spike (and all spell triggers, iirc) have a cooldown of 0.05s.

Glacial Spike deals ice damage, while Red Wolf deals physical damage. The availability of +% Ice damage, and the lack of +% Physical damage comes into play here.

Glacial Spike deals AOE damage, whereas Red Wolf hits "up to 2 targets". This means Glacial Spike is more likely to hit more targets.

Glacial Spike inflicts both Freeze and Immobilize, whereas Red Wolf doesn't inflict any affix.

Red Wolf has a (generally) higher proc rate than Glacial Spike, on most Berserker builds that would choose to invest heavily in it.

But Glacial Spike procs are only available via weapon sockets/as weapon affix, while Red Wolf is a skill.


Thank you for highlighting the difference between red wolf and Glacial Spike. So i take it that you are saying because of these difference, removing the CD (or reducing it to be same as Glacial Spike 0.05s) allowing it to proc over ten times a second is not OP.

Damage wise I think it is ok, its average damage is around 3300. Slightly lower than the elemental brands (which we have people complaining they are too OP) at around 4400.

The Elemental Brands proc off any damage (exclude DoTs) so long as the respective affixes are on the targets. They are single target, and deal their respective Elemental damage. They have a different range, damage type, and proc condition. It is not fair to just directly compare their damage as a point of balance.

Agree that they have different triggers, targets, elements etc etc. But fundamentally they are procs that are easily triggered by their respective classes. So it is natural there would be comparison between the two. Its funny to me that two such similar skills have such contrasting views, a range proc for a range class is OP at 4400 while a melee proc for a melee class needs to be buff at 3300.

Salan

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Re: Focus 1f: flat damage skills, potential scaling
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2013, 08:43:23 AM »
Quote
Agree that they have different triggers, targets, elements etc etc. But fundamentally they are procs that are easily triggered by their respective classes. So it is natural there would be comparison between the two. Its funny to me that two such similar skills have such contrasting views, a range proc for a range class is OP at 4400 while a melee proc for a melee class needs to be buff at 3300.

Could it be because the amount of different ways they trigger off of things varies so greatly from each other that they should not be viewed as equals?

not so much that one is melee for melee and one is ranged for ranged, but rather the type of damage it does, what it hits, and how it procs are so drastically different that it would be like comparing a embermages starting skill to that of the berserkers starting skill... I mean they might do the same range of damage per hit each, and one is melee and one is ranged, but the only true comparison is that they are both given at level 1 for free, we wouldn't discuss them as equals simply because of a 1000 pnt difference in their damage totals.
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Craftea

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Re: Focus 1f: flat damage skills, potential scaling
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2013, 10:38:49 AM »
Yes they are both boasted by FOC. But as your gear grows from tier1 to tier 2 to tier 3, your %WDPS will get stronger even if your FOC doesnt change simply because your weapon will get stronger. While your 1500 dmg flat value portion will remain 1500 dmg no matter how you change your gear. If nothing is done to make the flat value number increase according to a stat, flat value skills will become obselete as we move up the tier.

I don't have any issue with the %WDPS component. I think that the flat damage component so that Wolfpack can be solely a %WDPS skill.

The only reason I think Wolfpack has a flat damage component, was to allow it to be useful at lower levels, since the WDPS component would largely take over at the later levels/tiers. (Unless Wolfpack would be intended as a flat damage skill.)

I don't see a point to skills having a flat and WDPS component, since the WDPS component is prioritized in builds as it is easier to boost compared to flat damage. Except, maybe for skills that intend to have a flat damage portion will still being able to proc various affixes.

Thank you for highlighting the difference between red wolf and Glacial Spike. So i take it that you are saying because of these difference, removing the CD (or reducing it to be same as Glacial Spike 0.05s) allowing it to proc over ten times a second is not OP.

----

Agree that they have different triggers, targets, elements etc etc. But fundamentally they are procs that are easily triggered by their respective classes. So it is natural there would be comparison between the two. Its funny to me that two such similar skills have such contrasting views, a range proc for a range class is OP at 4400 while a melee proc for a melee class needs to be buff at 3300.

My point is that you can't directly compare Red Wolf with either.

While the Brands are closer in nature to Red Wolf than Glacial Spike is, there are still various differences, with the most notable being that Red Wolf deals physical damage while the Brands deal elemental damage.

The fact that Red Wolf deals melee damage is compensated by hitting two targets at once, and the difference of the proc condition is relatively minor, considering most Berserkers would rely on Frenzy for their Red Wolf procs (effectively boosting it up to 100%), and with Embermage AOE, you tend to inflict the required affix(es) onto at least 1 enemy when attacking. (similarly may be considered 100%)

(Of course, neither are actually 100%, but for the sake of argument, it is assumed that they could be considered as such.)

The range makes a difference for build viability. Brands can be taken on any Embermage, so long as it has a reasonable chance to inflict the required affix. Red Wolf can only be taken on melee FOC-reliant Berserkers (granted, most are melee, so just glossing over that).

Which makes the difference, since some melee Berserkers that could take Red Wolf rely on WDPS skills (Ravage, Raze etc.), and would choose to balance between STR and FOC. (to get the most out of Syn scaling)

The Embermage has a greater pool of flat damage spells, and fewer WDPS skills, which favors FOC heavy builds. In addition, the Elemental Brands benefit from their respective +% Elemental Damage affixes.

I think the nature of the Embermage, and gear favor Brands more than the Berserker's Red Wolf. Therefore, I think it would be justified for Red Wolf to have a higher base damage than the Brands.

But... having said all that, it is debatable whether the Brands are balanced themselves, so I don't think it would be wise to use them as a point of reference until we've concluded that they are/aren't.

dreams

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Re: Focus 1f: flat damage skills, potential scaling
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2013, 12:32:37 PM »
I don't have any issue with the %WDPS component. I think that the flat damage component so that Wolfpack can be solely a %WDPS skill.

The only reason I think Wolfpack has a flat damage component, was to allow it to be useful at lower levels, since the WDPS component would largely take over at the later levels/tiers. (Unless Wolfpack would be intended as a flat damage skill.)

I don't see a point to skills having a flat and WDPS component, since the WDPS component is prioritized in builds as it is easier to boost compared to flat damage. Except, maybe for skills that intend to have a flat damage portion will still being able to proc various affixes.


Frankly speaking runic has alot of weird design decisions that I cant really understand too. But no matter whats the design consideration behind it, just because we dont understand doesnt mean it is wrong and we should remove it.

Which makes the difference, since some melee Berserkers that could take Red Wolf rely on WDPS skills (Ravage, Raze etc.), and would choose to balance between STR and FOC. (to get the most out of Syn scaling)

The Embermage has a greater pool of flat damage spells, and fewer WDPS skills, which favors FOC heavy builds. In addition, the Elemental Brands benefit from their respective +% Elemental Damage affixes.

I think the nature of the Embermage, and gear favor Brands more than the Berserker's Red Wolf. Therefore, I think it would be justified for Red Wolf to have a higher base damage than the Brands.

But... having said all that, it is debatable whether the Brands are balanced themselves, so I don't think it would be wise to use them as a point of reference until we've concluded that they are/aren't.

The difference between STR and FOC isnt that great actually. With STR red wolf loses out on the FOC and elemental damage portion but wins in the crit dmg portion. Likewise with FOC the brands
win on the FOC and elemental damage portion but loses in the crit dmg portion. If we go into detailed math, brands would probably win due to the fact that it is easier to stack crit dmg but the difference is not huge.

Ultimately it boils down to what started the debate, damage. As a support skill Red wolf has very decent damage, there is no need to buff it.

Salan

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Re: Focus 1f: flat damage skills, potential scaling
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2013, 02:58:29 PM »

Frankly speaking runic has alot of weird design decisions that I cant really understand too. But no matter whats the design consideration behind it, just because we dont understand doesnt mean it is wrong and we should remove it.

this is exactly my view on a lot of things.  I hesitate to change things simply because we can.  There are reasons for everything, I might not agree with them, or I might be able to see them.  But just because of those points doesn't mean it SHOULD be changed.  We're not here to reinvent the classes, but to find spots that have a more agreeable issue and adjust to synergies changes. 

Quote
Ultimately it boils down to what started the debate, damage. As a support skill Red wolf has very decent damage, there is no need to buff it.

yes, this message is about damage not scaling in usefulness within synergies.  I don't think that for all the 'differences' red wolf falls into the catagory of being useless by anymeans.  It is more indepth then I had previously known, and needs to be specifically spec'd for to be utilized correctly,  but it was built to be that way.
it interacts with its enviroment specifically as it should, what the argument has basically boiled down to is if red wolf should be more useful beyond its intended purpose, not does its damage need to be checked.   So the discussion itself is slightly falling out of the catagory of this thread, this is just about damages scaling correctly, not proc rates and target choices.

It is no brand, but we're not talking about embermages in this thread, this is STILL the berserker thread,a nd we will concentrate on the berserker skills with this.  I am reluctant to change the targetting and processes of red wolf.  Changing how it works effects a lot more then we might consider at first glance.  Yes it is a niche spell, but it is a rather large niche on the class, and we're not here rewriting the class either.

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Craftea

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Re: Focus 1f: flat damage skills, potential scaling
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2013, 11:37:50 AM »
Frankly speaking runic has alot of weird design decisions that I cant really understand too. But no matter whats the design consideration behind it, just because we dont understand doesnt mean it is wrong and we should remove it.

Just because we don't understand it doesn't mean it is right and we should keep it, either. That's what we're here for right? To try to understand to make/facilitate decisions. We could talk about whether it is "right" or "wrong", and I think we should.

I mean, that's the entire point of modding, isn't it? To be able to alter the game based on the community's understanding. It is one thing to design the system mechanics (i.e. Runic's part), and another to understand the implications of those mechanics on game play. I think the players better understand the latter than the creators.

Although... personally, I just dislike the idea that we're assuming that Runic is right, on the basis that we don't understand, and then making decisions based on that.