Author Topic: Focus 2d: Engineer cannon skills -- blast cannon and fusillade  (Read 6756 times)

dreams

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Re: Focus 2d: Engineer cannon skills -- blast cannon and fusillade
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2013, 08:51:00 PM »
Basically think what Miothan suggested is a good idea but definitely need to test the charge gain/spend rate.

RaymondLi

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Re: Focus 2d: Engineer cannon skills -- blast cannon and fusillade
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2013, 12:00:44 AM »
I like miothan's charge mechanism but here is something which needs to be noticed:


Blast Cannon needs something else than the +28% fire damage debuff to make it worth investing in, right now its pointless to put 15 points into it when you can just blast everything easily with Fusilade (For end-game, which is what i focus on), Blast Cannon should either be made a Charge spender OR a debuff ability with/without a cooldown, blind doesnt work on any bosses as Salan already informed us ages ago so the tier bonus is useless for end-game activities.

Tier 1, +5% physical and fire damage, +2 debuff duration.
Tier 2, adds additional +10% physical and Fire damage, +2 debuff duration.
Tier 3, adds additional +15% physical and Fire damage +2 debuff duration.

Ends up with a grand totall of +58% fire and physical damage debuff for 10 seconds, that would be worth 15 points imo since it boosts the damage of other abilities.

Would be good to allow Blast Cannon to give charge at 100% so you had an actuall cannon attack that you can use to charge your bar.


First, Here the 58% debuff, is way much stronger than the 58% damage bonus on your equipment.

Second, I have done some experiments that if one attack skill can draw similar debuff on targets, i.e. frost breath, flaming glaives, etc,
the damage of themselves would stack the debuff twice while other skills only once.

I post the test result in the Berserker post.
(if frost breath can hit a target theoretically with 1k damage, it would actually hit a 1.48k (lv 15 +48% all damage taken debuff)  for the first time hit, and a 1.96k on the second and following attacks. While other skills with original 1k can hit 1.48k within the duration of the debuff. )

Third, since blast cannon can usually hit all the enemies in the straight line, the charge rate cannot be 100% for sure. Either a penalty 25%-30% or a fixed rate like shield bash is good.


« Last Edit: November 01, 2013, 12:03:29 AM by RaymondLi »
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RaymondLi

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Re: Focus 2d: Engineer cannon skills -- blast cannon and fusillade
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2013, 12:25:47 AM »

Fusilade tier bonus:

Tier1: 4 Rockets are released per Burst. +5% damage per charge. Uses 1 charge if available.
Tier2: 5 Rockets are released per Burst. +10% damage per charge. Uses 1 charge if available.
Tier3: 6 Rockers are released per Burst. +15% damage per charge. Uses 1 charge if available. (Each tier bonus does not stack with eachother, so its only +15% damage per charge when you take the Tier3 bonus for a totall of +75% damage bonus on a full charge bar)


A little bit off topic though. The ember hammer has similar affixes of charge damage bonus. But at least from my test, lv 15 I can never get 75% damage bonus at full charge.  (only 60% I think) Not sure why, but if you guys want to do this on fusillade, it may end up with the same result.

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Miothan

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Re: Focus 2d: Engineer cannon skills -- blast cannon and fusillade
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2013, 08:23:54 AM »
I like miothan's charge mechanism but here is something which needs to be noticed:


Blast Cannon needs something else than the +28% fire damage debuff to make it worth investing in, right now its pointless to put 15 points into it when you can just blast everything easily with Fusilade (For end-game, which is what i focus on), Blast Cannon should either be made a Charge spender OR a debuff ability with/without a cooldown, blind doesnt work on any bosses as Salan already informed us ages ago so the tier bonus is useless for end-game activities.

Tier 1, +5% physical and fire damage, +2 debuff duration.
Tier 2, adds additional +10% physical and Fire damage, +2 debuff duration.
Tier 3, adds additional +15% physical and Fire damage +2 debuff duration.

Ends up with a grand totall of +58% fire and physical damage debuff for 10 seconds, that would be worth 15 points imo since it boosts the damage of other abilities.

Would be good to allow Blast Cannon to give charge at 100% so you had an actuall cannon attack that you can use to charge your bar.

A little bit off topic though. The ember hammer has similar affixes of charge damage bonus. But at least from my test, lv 15 I can never get 75% damage bonus at full charge.  (only 60% I think) Not sure why, but if you guys want to do this on fusillade, it may end up with the same result.



First, Here the 58% debuff, is way much stronger than the 58% damage bonus on your equipment.

Second, I have done some experiments that if one attack skill can draw similar debuff on targets, i.e. frost breath, flaming glaives, etc,
the damage of themselves would stack the debuff twice while other skills only once.

I post the test result in the Berserker post.
(if frost breath can hit a target theoretically with 1k damage, it would actually hit a 1.48k (lv 15 +48% all damage taken debuff)  for the first time hit, and a 1.96k on the second and following attacks. While other skills with original 1k can hit 1.48k within the duration of the debuff. )

Third, since blast cannon can usually hit all the enemies in the straight line, the charge rate cannot be 100% for sure. Either a penalty 25%-30% or a fixed rate like shield bash is good.

I know that its better than a flatt +% damage buff, but Cannoneer does sub-par damage, to bring it up you need to do about double of what it is doing right now, or it will continue to be sub-par compared to emberquake engineer.

Shield bash crit for about 150k for me, up to 201k from the largest hit, gets me about 1 charge per cast on average, As long as Blast Cannon can get charges up as fast as Shield Bash on single target enemies there wont be a problem imo, but make it sub-par and everyone will stick with Dynamo to get Charges (or just skip it and spam fusilade instead which we do now as Cannoneers)

Dynamo Field is incredible when it comes to gaining charges, on average 1 charge per cast of Dynamo Field and with 2 enemies it takes me 2-3 casts to fill up the charge bar and it has 1 second cooldown(Animation)so dont really se the problem with Blast Cannon to be able to gain 0.48 charge per target hit AND have its debuffs to make it worth casting. Depending on the enemy you can get 1-3 charges with Dynamo field on a SINGLE cast on  a SINGLE enemy, for enemies with deflecting its harder since it deflects the electric charge from Dynamo which seems to add Charge aswell, which is strange ^^

Might take up to 6-7 Casts for Dynamo Field to get full charge on Single targets such as bosses with no summons etc, but its the fastest way to gain charges if theres more than 1 enemy around, and not much slower than shield bash for single target charge gains, Blast Cannon needs to have competitive charge gain.

With the debuff from Blast Cannon 60% may end up being enough of a damage boost to make Cannoneer competitive for end-game, right now its quite sad when it comes to its damage compared to Emberquake, and even Flame Hammer does more (Not a whole lot more, but still more :P)
« Last Edit: November 01, 2013, 08:59:05 AM by Miothan »
What was once dead, can be made into servants of death and destruction. Feast on the innocent, slaughter the weak and punish those who would stand in your way!

RaymondLi

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Re: Focus 2d: Engineer cannon skills -- blast cannon and fusillade
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2013, 10:24:41 AM »
First, according to my experiment, 58% debuff would mean 116% for Blast cannon itself actually if you have a cannon only with physical and fire damage (because they can stack up twice as I mentioned). And there is another damage taken debuff ember reach 56%.

Second, Blast Cannon has no CD and costs no charge, while emberquake has a 1s CD, and Flame Hammer costs charges.
To get max DPS for Blast Cannon you can get some equipment with high cast speed because it's spammable although a little slow.
The other 2 skills you mentioned cannot simply takes advantages of cast speed due to CD or charging (need some auto attacks in between to charge or it would not be the max DPS).

Third, I am not sure what build you are playing makes you say it is sub-par. Probably Strength build I guess?

But I did see a DoT build cannoner with extremely high damage, considering his condition.
He doesn't enchant himself at all, and no DR, and he got passed the elite Tarroch's Tomb, only with some trouble for the last 2-3 bosses. He was using the lv105 5-slot cannon in vanilla.  IMO the last lamp bosses of tarroch's tomb have a similar or even higher difficulty with Tier 1 in synergies.

His major output stats are from 5 giant blood embers (19XX in 5s) without enchantment, ==> 10000 physical damage over 5s from weapon,  and ~800 focus, -- all focus build + blue set+probably 2 or 3 +62 focus skulls. NOT ANY ENCHANTMENTS AT ALL.

It's not hard to get similar values in synergies with higher level skulls (2 or 3 3970 in 5s vanilla, and future legendary skulls) and enchantments -- though we have fewer slots on the weapon.
And with enchantments we can have higher focus as well. In synergies focus is still working the same as vanilla when it affects the flat damages. So we would end up with higher DPS than this buddy easily.
And plus, DoT would be affected by those damage taken debuff. Higher weapon DPS conversion rate (120-148%) also means it would convert the DoT with the same rate. (120-148%* all DoTs from weapon per hit)

If we actually buff the Blast cannon that high, with the enough enchantments and survivability, I feel cannoners would be overpowered instead of underpowered anymore.

Many skills are not that weak. Just the style how you play makes them stronger or weaker.




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Miothan

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Re: Focus 2d: Engineer cannon skills -- blast cannon and fusillade
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2013, 11:56:38 AM »
according to my experiment, 58% debuff would mean 116% for Blast cannon itself actually if you have a cannon only with physical and fire damage (because they can stack up twice as I mentioned). And there is another damage taken debuff ember reach 56%.

Second, Blast Cannon has no CD and costs no charge, while emberquake has a 1s CD, and Flame Hammer costs charges.
To get max DPS for Blast Cannon you can get some equipment with high cast speed because it's spammable although a little slow.
The other 2 skills you mentioned cannot simply takes advantages of cast speed due to CD or charging (need some auto attacks in between to charge or it would not be the max DPS).

Third, I am not sure what build you are playing makes you say it is sub-par. Probably Strength build I guess?

But I did see a DoT build cannoner with extremely high damage, considering his condition.
He doesn't enchant himself at all, and no DR, and he got passed the elite Tarroch's Tomb, only with some trouble for the last 2-3 bosses. He was using the lv105 5-slot cannon in vanilla.  IMO the last lamp bosses of tarroch's tomb have a similar or even higher difficulty with Tier 1 in synergies.

His major output stats are from 5 giant blood embers (19XX in 5s) without enchantment, ==> 10000 physical damage over 5s from weapon,  and ~800 focus, -- all focus build + blue set+probably 2 or 3 +62 focus skulls. NOT ANY ENCHANTMENTS AT ALL.

It's not hard to get similar values in synergies with higher level skulls (2 or 3 3970 in 5s vanilla, and future legendary skulls) and enchantments -- though we have fewer slots on the weapon.
And with enchantments we can have higher focus as well. In synergies focus is still working the same as vanilla when it affects the flat damages. So we would end up with higher DPS than this buddy easily.
And plus, DoT would be affected by those damage taken debuff. Higher weapon DPS conversion rate (120-148%) also means it would convert the DoT with the same rate. (120-148%* all DoTs from weapon per hit)

If we actually buff the Blast cannon that high, with the enough enchantments and survivability, I feel cannoners would be overpowered instead of underpowered anymore.

Many skills are not that weak. Just the style how you play makes them stronger or weaker.

The 56% debuff from Ember reach increases only the physical portion of any Cannon equiped if it does any physical damage, With Riftplane Destroyer which has 501-1000 physical damage Ember Reach incerased my Crits damage by a maximum of 15,000, from 110k crits to 125k crits when using Blast Cannon ofc.

I have Devastator equiped when i do my testings, and tried with Riftplane Destroyer and the damage is sub-par compared to Emberquake, the tests i have done right now was on bosses in DK 105, not on the test dummy, i find it sub-par when it takes double the time to kill bosses with Fusilade (Which is the best dps ability for a cannoneer right now) vs. Emberquake. Also...Emberquake can hit the same target 8 times, just stand close enough and you get atleast 5 hits, facetank with FF up and its 8 hits, dont se how "Cannon Blast with no CD" criting for 125k with an Ember Reach debuff up would be SO great when i do 401k damage with 1 hit from Emberquake(Dmg record on my Emberquaker). My own testing have shown that Cannoneer is sub-par when it comes to damage vs. Emberquake, flame Hammer not so much, but it still does MORE damage even tho its not much of a difference betwen Flame Hammer and Fusilade(having to repossition to deal damage with fusilade is what makes Flame Hammer do more damage, even at 0 charges)


If the debuff from Blast Cannon stacks up to 2 then that should be removed and remade into a better % than 48% which it currently would be.

This is ofc my own testings, if you know of a build that does more than 401k dmg per hit ill be using that, but untill Cannoneer builds get more damage im sticking to Emberquake since it has to much to pass up and im even using a shield.

All testing done in Elite difficulty.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2013, 12:03:05 PM by Miothan »
What was once dead, can be made into servants of death and destruction. Feast on the innocent, slaughter the weak and punish those who would stand in your way!

RaymondLi

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Re: Focus 2d: Engineer cannon skills -- blast cannon and fusillade
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2013, 01:47:03 PM »
401k for emberquake is multiple hit right? Due to the display issue sometimes the damage would be displayed as actually a combination of a multiple hits in a very short duration. If you can do 401k per hit, then we need to discuss to nerf emberquake instead of buff cannoner here. 401k per hit, in 10s you should make human dragon riders to the dragon form.

I tried a lv100 all focus build cannoner,
with 4 dragonrift and 4 witchhunter, and helm of the pumpkin and devastater. 
Necklace with fully heal enchantments, weapon with 5 enchantments (end up with 165 fire damage and 3295 fire damage over 5s).
And also 2 skulls of 3300 physical damage in 3s. (Skulls of nalas ... I probably got them from DF I guess... Not sure... Won't make big difference with 3970 in 5s though)
 
Other stat enchant -- 400 Str, 1100 Focus. 52% attack speed and 28% cast speed.
All slots with 1500 hp and 7%DR . 35000hp and 74% DR.

I can kill DK dragon riders within 75s. Gate keeper 8s.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2013, 03:27:25 PM by RaymondLi »
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Miothan

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Re: Focus 2d: Engineer cannon skills -- blast cannon and fusillade
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2013, 03:01:40 PM »
401k for emberquake is multiple hit right?

Its from 8 Embers from emberquake +Glacial Spike with all debuffs up on the target, why would you discuss a nerf to emberquake just becuase its the top build?(for me it is the top build) seems rather pointless to go around nerfing the builds that DO work. Might aswell nerf Necromancer then since it does just a little bit less damage but is ranged(Bone Needle build). Nerfs should not be the main concern unless it is heavily OP, and Emberquake isnt since there are builds for the other classes that comes close to hes damage, and makes up for the less damage by being ranged, the class that needs a BIG push for Elite difficulty viability would be Berserker, seriously, berseker sucks in Elite imo.

And yea, for Normal i can even kill the dragon riders before they transforms, but so can i with Necro and Embermage, im guessing you are concerned with Normal diffiulty since you wrote 10 seconds, but normal difficulty is the "whatever" difficulty and should not be discussed imo, you dont even need capped DR to survive in Normal. Also, the non set items are much more powerfull except for the Asphyx set which i se as mandatory for all my characters due to 10 sockets, what you used seems like a really bad way to mix gear if you want to maximize damage, also dont forget to enchant for +%fire damage, stat enchants are not as powerfull as the dmg bonus from +%fire dmg, could have changed now tho with 5 enchants being available but i dont know since i havent tried stat enchants since the enchant update was made.

OT: I compare Emberquake with Cannoneer simply becuase its the 2 out of 3 builds available (shield+sword, 2hander, Cannon) and if Cannon isnt doing close-to the same damage then its not viable for me, if you "fix" it by nerfing emberquake then min/max people will move on to the better dmg dealer which is Necro.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2013, 03:05:47 PM by Miothan »
What was once dead, can be made into servants of death and destruction. Feast on the innocent, slaughter the weak and punish those who would stand in your way!

RaymondLi

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Re: Focus 2d: Engineer cannon skills -- blast cannon and fusillade
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2013, 03:33:46 PM »
Elite difficulty how long can you kill a boss? And what stats you are having, with your emberquaker?
I am not talking whatever difficulty. Is my words so hard to understand? I am playing elite.
When I said 10s, I was not sure if it's from your one hit or 8 hits. If you can do 401k every hit, and consider boss human form has 4500k hp in elite, 10s is the result since you can only cast quake once per second.

I already gave my stats.
I re-enchanted my cannoner, with 137 Str, 1300 Focus now. 2 *3970 DoT in 5s and 5460 fire damage in 5s on my devastator.
Even without capped DR I can survive. I mentioned that build can survive without any DR in elite Tarroch's tomb (of course very dangerous), the lv 200 dungeon in vanilla. And 74% is only 1% away, whatever.

My DoT cannoner builder needs only 55s to kill both 2 phases of kane (red dragon) in elite difficulty.
The green one is even shorter. Blue, white and gray ones is a little bit longer, like 65-80s.
Max tick of DoT can be 300k per 0.5s.  On boss.
On dummy I got a 550K, should be a combination display of dot and normal attack.

Again, if you buff it that high, I probably kill him in 30s. The time is mainly because it would fly up in sky. For a ground boss it would be much shorter.

And after I get more soulcrafted Tier0, I can fill slots with 62 focus instead of DR.
Focus, works exactly same as vanilla when it affects the flat damages and DoT. I already did a lot of experiments and asked Salan.

And talking about the stacks for those skills with the damage taken debuff, it seems to be hardcoded in the game system. (Not only blast cannon, ... all similar skills like Frost Breath, Flaming Glaives share this feature. ) Not easy to delete it I think.

And among 2h, cannons, and 1h+shield, I think the worst performance is actually 2h, not cannoner.

« Last Edit: November 01, 2013, 04:30:06 PM by RaymondLi »
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Miothan

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Re: Focus 2d: Engineer cannon skills -- blast cannon and fusillade
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2013, 07:45:40 PM »
Re'enchanted my engineer for the purpose of testing with 5 enchants, killed kane in 40 seconds, then went and tried Kashlya, killed him in 14 seconds. Going to bed now, will do additional testing tomorrow.
What was once dead, can be made into servants of death and destruction. Feast on the innocent, slaughter the weak and punish those who would stand in your way!