Author Topic: Embermage, weaksause?  (Read 19360 times)

Miothan

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Embermage, weaksause?
« on: August 23, 2014, 10:48:41 AM »
Recently i managed to complete the Brimstone set, and thought, well, why not give it all to my Embermage whos been doing nothing for a long time :D

I got all special enchants and all mythical sockets (Not all those that i wanted, but still enough to say i should be able to kill bosses with no problem). And i am finding it very hard to do anything as an Embermage, i sat on the dummy trying every ability to se what would be best and even then its a painful experience trying to do T1 content with an Embermage.

Problems that i think the Embermage currently has:

No reliable survivability/health regain ability (death aura is not reliable adn even when used on multiple targets its pitiful healing)
Damage abilities flat out sucks. ( almost All her stuff can be missile reflected, and they do not do much damage)
No good Passive like the other classes has, such as +crit/critdmg/+block/+dodge/+healing/+chance to do something excellent

The way Embermage's current abilities work, it seems to be better to wear an Aftermath set since that will eliminate the need for a source of reliable healing/sustain since you get healed when autohitting, and it seems to do more damage as well.

EDIT: Used my berserker's Aftermath set on my Embermage, and finished ALL challenge chests, did a full clear and only died 1 time on the Warlock and a few times on the Netherlord (Due to crapy AoE damage with the Embermage, was quite hard to finish the challenge, but managed in the end).
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 11:35:36 AM by Miothan »
What was once dead, can be made into servants of death and destruction. Feast on the innocent, slaughter the weak and punish those who would stand in your way!

Salan

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Re: Embermage, weaksause?
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2014, 11:34:29 AM »
two things your saying..

1 choose the right gear it will work
2 not choosing the right gear makes it not work.

now maybe its because of how i designed my own classes to be functional with most sets of gear but the embermage really is a glassycannon in comparison.
its on my radar to change their health proc into a aura instead of a re-cast area buff on enemies, that is only part of the problem thou.

The damage over all does need a good look at, I made a embermage and came to the same conclusions with mine in end game.
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Miothan

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Re: Embermage, weaksause?
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2014, 11:37:23 AM »
two things your saying..

1 choose the right gear it will work
2 not choosing the right gear makes it not work.

now maybe its because of how i designed my own classes to be functional with most sets of gear but the embermage really is a glassycannon in comparison.
its on my radar to change their health proc into a aura instead of a re-cast area buff on enemies, that is only part of the problem thou.

The damage over all does need a good look at, I made a embermage and came to the same conclusions with mine in end game.

No, what i am saying is:

The embermage's Skill-set is sup-par to all other classes, so you gimp yourself if you TRY to wear anything else than Aftermath, simply because the Embermage seems to have no good skills (With the T1 debuff, skills such as +crit chance etc becomes very powerful, and embermage has 0 +%stat increases)

Embermage should be a great AoE character, but atm all her AoE abilities are SO bad, which makes it even harder to get a working build/gear-set for her if you want to focus on the Embermage skills and not autohitting. You CAN kill T1 bosses with a full brimstone set, i have done it, but it is so much harder and requires so much more time because your damage output is quite low.

Btw, with aftermaths parry effect and 980 vit on my embermage i had 56k physical and 30k elemental armor, which was quite nice when wearing my berserker's Aftermath set :D
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 11:44:07 AM by Miothan »
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Salan

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Re: Embermage, weaksause?
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2014, 11:43:39 AM »
Embermage can have builds that will destroy the content, keyzr has an extremely successful one, but again your point is the same he makes, you can only do it with extreme gear choices.



Which means the class doesn't do the same as most other classes in giving options.

I will do another embermage overhaul pass at some point after stage2 and see what I can do for it.
People motivate themselves, and are inspired by others.
--- I love making FUN encounters, the ones that make you scream with terror, and remember them forever! ---
**more awesome then an awesome possum**

potterman28wxcv

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Re: Embermage, weaksause?
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2014, 01:46:36 PM »
No reliable survivability/health regain ability (death aura is not reliable adn even when used on multiple targets its pitiful healing)

That is true.

Damage abilities flat out sucks. ( almost All her stuff can be missile reflected, and they do not do much damage)

You can make them dealing a great amount of damage with crits. That's the base of my embermage build ; I've got +500% critical damage and almost 60% chance to crit in DF. I've also a high amount of focus, and in the end it deals crazy damage.

As for the missile reflection, yeah you can't use skills like Prismatic Bolts ; what I just use like 90% of the time in DF is Frost Wave + Firestorm + Fire Brand + Ice brand. That's some heavy kill, and if it's reflected at least it's not direct unavoidable damage  ;) That also gives a nice AoE.

For a single reflective enemy, Ice Prison is the way to go and deals also crazy damage every 2 sec if you manage to trap the guy

For all the other single enemies that are not reflective, well Ice Prison + Blazing Pillars + Prismatic Bolts + Three brands = ownage, assuming no one is hitting you.

No good Passive like the other classes has, such as +crit/critdmg/+block/+dodge/+healing/+chance to do something excellent

At least the embermage has the fire armor that can give it +15% DR.. Nothing more though. But that is enough imo for a class that is not supposed to have much survivability anyway.

Though, that's true that especially with the high amount of health needed, I would appreciate to have more useful healing abilities. But that's a problem with every classes in the game but the berzerker and the paladin so.. It's not really specific to the embermage :P
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 01:51:04 PM by potterman28wxcv »

Miothan

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Re: Embermage, weaksause?
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2014, 02:16:04 PM »
I tried different stat builds and while 500% crit dmg does ok, its certainly behind in damage compared to my warlock and Berserker, and the aftermath set killed faster than using 500% crit (300% crit with aftermath on my embermage).

Could just be a case of no T1 focus weapon available yet tho, but so-far, it seems to me that the Embermage is not a glasscannon, its more like a peashooter that requires utmost care for both gear and build to have a comfortable character.

Warlock, Berseker and Engineer has better survivability then the paladin in all ways, paladin only has a full-heal every 20 seconds, not exactly gamechanging, i include Engineer simply because not every ability goes through shield abilities in Darkness Falls, some does, but not enough to kill you right off.

Also, Fire Pillars are really annoying, they do not last long enough to justify 15 points imo, tho it is one of the abilities that deals good enough damage to actually use.

Also, what is "great damage" ? i do not consider 500k per 1 second great damage, that would be "decent damage".

EDIT: i certainly do not have much knowledge about Embermage, so any tip to improve a caster oriented gear build would be appreciated, just been tinkering with the brimstone set to min/max my Embermage.(and it falls short by a lot, at least by my standards)
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 02:51:22 PM by Miothan »
What was once dead, can be made into servants of death and destruction. Feast on the innocent, slaughter the weak and punish those who would stand in your way!

alteisen

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Re: Embermage, weaksause?
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2014, 08:16:10 AM »
Well, I have tried different skills for embermage in this mod. I think the most worth is frost skills. With frost wave, icy blast, and hail storm I can easily kill rather than fire or shock, because of slow, immobilize, and damage over x seconds.

"great damage" for me in this mod points to how long can I kill mobs.

I was wondering is Prismatic Bolt really worth in this mod? I always have trouble when kill mobs. I mean, how can you clear so much enemies fast with 5 missiles? Frost wave, fire pillar, or shock bolts can do better job. ???

Miothan

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Re: Embermage, weaksause?
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2014, 11:50:13 AM »
Well, I have tried different skills for embermage in this mod. I think the most worth is frost skills. With frost wave, icy blast, and hail storm I can easily kill rather than fire or shock, because of slow, immobilize, and damage over x seconds.

"great damage" for me in this mod points to how long can I kill mobs.

I was wondering is Prismatic Bolt really worth in this mod? I always have trouble when kill mobs. I mean, how can you clear so much enemies fast with 5 missiles? Frost wave, fire pillar, or shock bolts can do better job. ???

From my own Embermage tests with T1 gear, it seems to be very few attacks from the Embermage that i would call "viable" for DF, best single-target is using Infernal-collapse and Icy Prison every cooldown (Using icy prison again makes the prison shatter doing a lot of damage, up to 1mil crits if all 3 brands procs as well), Infernal Collapse and Icy Prison together makes it so you dont have enough time to cast anything else, and wasting time casting any other spell for a single-target is a waste of damage, well except for setting up Thunder Locus which deals decent damage and lasts for 42 seconds ^^

For multi-target it seems Frost-wave is the best wide-range AoE, Infernal collaprse and icy prison can still be used on large groups of mobs tho and hits most targets.

Prismatic Bolt in DF does not work very well, it is reflected a lot and the damage is not good enough to use as a main ability.

So again, Single target:

Icy Prison + Infernal Collapse + Thunder Locus

Multi target:

Frost wave + Icy Prison + Infernal Collapse

Ofcourse you do want the 3 brand abilitiers and Elemental Attunement since they are still "free" damage and they are passive :)
« Last Edit: September 20, 2014, 09:02:17 PM by Miothan »
What was once dead, can be made into servants of death and destruction. Feast on the innocent, slaughter the weak and punish those who would stand in your way!

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Re: Embermage, weaksause?
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2014, 12:09:50 PM »
so if i was to change anything with the embermage it is making it so its stacking skills give a larger damage output, and attack skills maybe hit a bit deeper.

Gotta consider how to do this in a means that doesn't break the class.
People motivate themselves, and are inspired by others.
--- I love making FUN encounters, the ones that make you scream with terror, and remember them forever! ---
**more awesome then an awesome possum**

PhoenixWing

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Re: Embermage, weaksause?
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2014, 02:40:41 PM »
If I am correct, I think the problem with embermage is that the damage output scale is additive (0.5*focus+elemental damage), while other classes' DPS-based skills scale quadratically (if your weapon does all fire damage and your skill does fire damage, +50% increase will results in 1.5*1.5 => +125% damage increase).

Since all the other classes' (both vanilla and new ones) skills are mainly based on DPS, I think one long-term solution might be making the skills based on DPS too. This might remove the uniqueness of the class though, but I think it is one of the most stable way to make the class scales well with higher level gears, especially when the tier level gets higher.

Salan

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Re: Embermage, weaksause?
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2014, 03:17:59 PM »
I make a lot of class skills that are weapon damage, and static numbers as well as weapon dps. 

I think a lot of the embermage skills could use a stat coefficient, like how some of the necromancer ones use your focus on static numbers as a bonus.
People motivate themselves, and are inspired by others.
--- I love making FUN encounters, the ones that make you scream with terror, and remember them forever! ---
**more awesome then an awesome possum**

alteisen

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Re: Embermage, weaksause?
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2014, 02:01:54 AM »
From my own Embermage tests with T1 gear, it seems to be very few attacks from the Embermage that i would call "viable" for DF, best single-target is using Infernal-collapse and Icy Prison every cooldown (Using icy prison again makes the prison shatter doing a lot of damage, up to 1mil crits), Infernal Collapse and Icy Prison together makes it so you dont have enough time to cast anything else, and wasting time casting any other spell for a single-target is a waste of damage, well except for setting up Thunder Locus which deals decent damageand lasts for 42 seconds ^^

For multi-target it seems Frost-wave is the best wide-range AoE, Infernal collaprse and icy prison can still be used on large groups of mobs tho and hits most targets.

Prismatic Bolt in DF does not work very well, it is reflected a lot and the damage is not good enough to use as a main ability.

So again, Single target:

Icy Prison + Infernal Collapse + Thunder Locus

Multi target:

Frost wave + Icy Prison + Infernal Collapse

Ofcourse you do want the 3 brand abilitiers and Elemental Attunement since they are still "free" damage and they are passive :)

I'm kinda surprised you don't include shock bolt in multi targets, because that's my main build right now, with wand chaos. And really shock bolt is better with wand chaos rather than staff mastery IMHO. But I think I know why. Damage, right?

But I think another issue for shock skills is they hardly receive boost from shock brand because no skill has high percentage to give shock effect. While in the other hand, fire brand can be triggered from magma spear DPS, and frost brand can be easily triggered by high percentage to give freeze effect like icy blast and frost wave.

I make a lot of class skills that are weapon damage, and static numbers as well as weapon dps. 

I think a lot of the embermage skills could use a stat coefficient, like how some of the necromancer ones use your focus on static numbers as a bonus.

Wait isn't that already applied to embermage? So you mean the current embermage's focus doesn't give damage to skills?

Salan

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Re: Embermage, weaksause?
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2014, 02:10:41 AM »
vanilla skills, did you ever make a level 100 character, max out a skill, look at its damage amounts then give yourself say 5000 focus and check the skill again?

some change some don't unless I remember wrong.
People motivate themselves, and are inspired by others.
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**more awesome then an awesome possum**

Salan

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Re: Embermage, weaksause?
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2014, 02:11:16 AM »
I will look into the lack of shock effect thou
People motivate themselves, and are inspired by others.
--- I love making FUN encounters, the ones that make you scream with terror, and remember them forever! ---
**more awesome then an awesome possum**

alteisen

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Re: Embermage, weaksause?
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2014, 04:26:01 AM »
Oh I see. I remember something inside the official forum said prismatic bolt receive focus boost so I thought the other too.

I have tried the new update with the thunderstorm. Really IT HELPS A LOT. But I don't know whether it's gamebreaking or not.