Author Topic: Underpowered and underused Engineer skills in need of rework  (Read 3607 times)

OShee

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Underpowered and underused Engineer skills in need of rework
« on: February 22, 2015, 07:33:59 AM »
Some of the Engineer skills are skipped by 99% of community, and for good reason. They suck, big time. There were threads about this before, but most of them are from 2013, and nothing was done about it, so I decided to post a new one and give some suggestions for improvements.

Bulwark:
Armor is not effective on higher levels, and physical damage reduction is worthless because you need to stack elemental resistance as well.
Possible rework 1: Add Elemental damage reduction to physical damage reduction, will result in freeing up sockets normally used for %reductions at the expense of skill points.
Possible rework 2: Remove other bonuses and add Blocking to the skill, but make it require Great Axe/Mace/Sword or Polearm. On Veteran/Elite no self respecting Engineer will use a 2h melee weapon, which is a shame because that's how he is portrayed on concept arts. 2% per skill point will make 2h melee Engineer not an overpowering character, but a viable alternative to sword and board. Personally I like this one better, as I always wanted to play 2h Engineer and finally make use of the Heavy Lifting instead of going shield/mace from level 1 to 100.

Sword and Board:
It's just plain weak for the skill investement.
Possible Rework 1: Make all your armor count for the damage, not only your shield armor.
Possible Rework 2: Increase skill progression from 20-90% to 40-500%.

Aegis of Fate:
Force Field prevents it from procing most of the time, and proc chance is too low.
Possible Rework 1: Proc chance from 2-16% to 4-32%.
Possible Rework 2: Add 50% resistance to slow, stun and immobilize on top of usual buffs when it procs, making it high risk, high reward buff.
Possible Rework 3: Make it an interval proc, recharging every x seconds without being hit.
On top of any of the options above, damage absorbed should scale with skill point investment, 10% per skill point. Level 1 - 200% armor, level 15 - 340% armor.

Charge Reconstitution:
Healing is sub par and you don't notice it even with 15 points. Completely useless on higher levels, and almost useless on lower levels.
Possible Rework 1: Double (or even triple?) the healing.
Possible Rework 2: Heals 30% of your max HP over 3 seconds, each skill point decreases time by 0.1 second and increases amount healed by 1%.
Possible Rework 3: When charge is used for skills, healing from all sources (potions, Healbot, HP steal) is magnified by x% for duration of x seconds. Example, 5% and 0.3 second with every skill point:
level 1, healing is more effective by 30% for 3 seconds,
level 5, healing is more effective by 50% for 4.2 seconds,
level 10, healing is more effective by 75% for 5.7 seconds,
level 15, healing is more effective by 100% for 7.2 seconds.

Fire Bash:
Only (if ever) taken for the last tier bonus. Otherwise quite useless skill.
Possible rework: Add equivalent of Tier III bonus to previous tiers.
Tier I - targets take 20% more fire damage for 5 seconds,
Tier II - targets take 35% more fire damage for 5 seconds.
Physical damage is tied to shield armor, depending on skill level it is 100-150% of shield armor, which is very low. Can be increased to 100-450% and converted to Fire damage.

Fusillade:
Missiles miss more often then they hit, and it makes Blast Cannon so much better until you get to Tier II making them AoE.
Possible rework: Make them AoE right from the start. Tier II bonus can be changed to 20% or 30% mana reduction, not overpowering but still nice to have.

Ember Reach:
Nobody uses it and for a good reason. Stun is worthless on Hero/Elite/Bosses, and it is a single target skill dealing no damage. Another problem with it is that it increases Physical damage taken, and most Engineer skills deal either Electric or Fire damage.
Possible rework: Replace Physical debuff with Electric. There is already Fire Bash for fire debuff, and Tremor for physical. Also, add 1 more target in 5m radius to be drawn to you at Tier I, another at Tier II (and increasing radius to 7m) and two more at Tier III.

Storm Burst:
Along with Onslaught, 1 point wonder for quick escape. Onslaught at least can slow down your enemies, but Storm Burst damage is quite low and it is not worth it to put more then 1 point in here.
Possible rework: Add +0.5m to traveled distance per skill point.

Coup the Grace:
Static damage, hard/impossible to proc on elite/hero/boss monsters. Needs to be redone/improved, here are couple of good options http://forums.synergiesmod.com/index.php?topic=2378.0

Ember Hammer:
1 point wonder and that's it, not worth the further skill point investment.
Possible rework: 4% chance to Shock targets for 5 seconds per skill point, each Tier increases Ember Hammer range by 0.5m.

potterman28wxcv

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Re: Underpowered and underused Engineer skills in need of rework
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2015, 12:34:00 PM »
Bulwark:
Armor is not effective on higher levels, and physical damage reduction is worthless because you need to stack elemental resistance as well.
Possible rework 1: Add Elemental damage reduction to physical damage reduction, will result in freeing up sockets normally used for %reductions at the expense of skill points.
Possible rework 2: Remove other bonuses and add Blocking to the skill, but make it require Great Axe/Mace/Sword or Polearm. On Veteran/Elite no self respecting Engineer will use a 2h melee weapon, which is a shame because that's how he is portrayed on concept arts. 2% per skill point will make 2h melee Engineer not an overpowering character, but a viable alternative to sword and board. Personally I like this one better, as I always wanted to play 2h Engineer and finally make use of the Heavy Lifting instead of going shield/mace from level 1 to 100.
1) That won't change the problem ; elemental armor works the same exact way as physical armor, except that instead of having one armor for everything, you have one type of armor for each type of elemental damage. But it's the same mechanics, and you will not gain much.
2) I think that would be a very nice one. The only way for the 2h engineer to survive is Forcefield right now ; it might increase his survivability by giving him some block chance. But block chances are decreased in tier 0.5 and after that. So the %block you have added by this skill will be useless if you don't have another item giving you additional block.

Sword and Board:
It's just plain weak for the skill investement.
Possible Rework 1: Make all your armor count for the damage, not only your shield armor.
Possible Rework 2: Increase skill progression from 20-90% to 40-500%.
I agree with this one. You need to have some high armor shield for it to be effective ; pumping it would be nice indeed.
But, a 1h + shield will always have to get a lower DPS than a 2h, for fairness

Aegis of Fate:
Force Field prevents it from procing most of the time, and proc chance is too low.
Possible Rework 1: Proc chance from 2-16% to 4-32%.
Possible Rework 2: Add 50% resistance to slow, stun and immobilize on top of usual buffs when it procs, making it high risk, high reward buff.
Possible Rework 3: Make it an interval proc, recharging every x seconds without being hit.
On top of any of the options above, damage absorbed should scale with skill point investment, 10% per skill point. Level 1 - 200% armor, level 15 - 340% armor.
1) The problem is not the proc chance, but the amount of damage it takes before it's taken down. In higher levels, FF will make you sustain 3 to 4 hits, while Aegis will only protect you from barely one hit.
2) The amount of damage it takes before being taken down is so ridiculous that you wouldn't even see the 50% resistance being effective. It would be more a "have 50% resistance until you get hit"
3) Every x seconds without being hit, that's a sweet dream mate  :) Unless your engineer doesn't play melee

Charge Reconstitution:
Healing is sub par and you don't notice it even with 15 points. Completely useless on higher levels, and almost useless on lower levels.
Possible Rework 1: Double (or even triple?) the healing.
Possible Rework 2: Heals 30% of your max HP over 3 seconds, each skill point decreases time by 0.1 second and increases amount healed by 1%.
Possible Rework 3: When charge is used for skills, healing from all sources (potions, Healbot, HP steal) is magnified by x% for duration of x seconds. Example, 5% and 0.3 second with every skill point:
level 1, healing is more effective by 30% for 3 seconds,
level 5, healing is more effective by 50% for 4.2 seconds,
level 10, healing is more effective by 75% for 5.7 seconds,
level 15, healing is more effective by 100% for 7.2 seconds.
I don't think 1 and 3 would be good options. About 1, even so the amount healed wouldn't be enough. The amount healed by other skills is ridiculous (sorry heal bot :/), so for the 3 it would only apply to health potions. I would be OK for the 3rd if it was adding a percentage of life steal too (instead of adding flat points to the HP steal). About the second, it sounds cool to me.

Fusillade:
Missiles miss more often then they hit, and it makes Blast Cannon so much better until you get to Tier II making them AoE.
Possible rework: Make them AoE right from the start. Tier II bonus can be changed to 20% or 30% mana reduction, not overpowering but still nice to have.

Even so, you will get a better damage output with Blast Cannon, no matter if it's single target or multiple targets. With one Blast Cannon you can hit multiple foes at the same time (and it's a great multiple foes removal), and you just need to aim, that's all. Fusillade hits randomly around you and you lose a lot of potential DPS because of this. If it was aiming automatically at foes it might be better. (It's unlikely that you will get mobs all around you ; you will always have (or almost) a "safe" side, and a "mobs" side.

Storm Burst:
Along with Onslaught, 1 point wonder for quick escape. Onslaught at least can slow down your enemies, but Storm Burst damage is quite low and it is not worth it to put more then 1 point in here.
Possible rework: Add +0.5m to traveled distance per skill point.
Even so, it won't be worth spending 15 points into it while you can get a "teleport-like" spell for cheap (onslaught). All that onslaught requires you is to have a line of sight, while it's harder to use Storm Burst to escape, you can be blocked easily.

Coup the Grace:
Static damage, hard/impossible to proc on elite/hero/boss monsters. Needs to be redone/improved, here are couple of good options http://forums.synergiesmod.com/index.php?topic=2378.0

I disagree with you with this one ; I've already done a couple of canoneers based on Coup de Grace + that_skill_that_adds_stun_chance_with_big_weapons + Blast Cannon + lot of STR. With Dervish, you can actually proc coup de grace to the boss, and i have killed a lot of bosses using almost only coup de grace, thanks to the high damage it gives. (I remember that I was even doing more damage than my embermage mate :P)
Still, yeah, it's easier to do it on bosses that stay static, so you can bombard them. Might need some rework, but it is possible to proc it even on bosses.

OShee

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Re: Underpowered and underused Engineer skills in need of rework
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2015, 04:13:27 PM »
Quote
1) That won't change the problem ; elemental armor works the same exact way as physical armor, except that instead of having one armor for everything, you have one type of armor for each type of elemental damage. But it's the same mechanics, and you will not gain much.
By this I meant adding not elemental armor, but elemental damage reduction, making Bulwark effectively a skill providing Damage taken reduced by x%. But I still like second option more, as I was always tempted to play 2h, but 1h/shield is just so much better on higher difficulties  ;)

 
Quote
But block chances are decreased in tier 0.5 and after that. So the %block you have added by this skill will be useless if you don't have another item giving you additional block.
Not sure I understand, can you elaborate?

Regarding Aegis of Fate, I wouldn't want to make it as good as Force Field for endgame (combining it would be OP), but after couple of tweaks it can add some survivability for leveling stages.

I think Fusillade is a good skill for single targets, you can make it work with Fire and Spark and Strength/Focus build, but lack of AoE really hurts on lower levels. Possibly DPS could be increased a little bit as well, so at least there is some other option then Blast Cannoning everything :)

Quote
Even so, it won't be worth spending 15 points into it while you can get a "teleport-like" spell for cheap (onslaught). All that onslaught requires you is to have a line of sight, while it's harder to use Storm Burst to escape, you can be blocked easily.
What would you suggest, increase in secondary damage/number of bolts?

potterman28wxcv

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Re: Underpowered and underused Engineer skills in need of rework
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2015, 04:36:03 PM »
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1) That won't change the problem ; elemental armor works the same exact way as physical armor, except that instead of having one armor for everything, you have one type of armor for each type of elemental damage. But it's the same mechanics, and you will not gain much.
By this I meant adding not elemental armor, but elemental damage reduction, making Bulwark effectively a skill providing Damage taken reduced by x%. But I still like second option more, as I was always tempted to play 2h, but 1h/shield is just so much better on higher difficulties  ;)
That would be fine then :) kind of the same as fire shield for the embermage then ?

Quote
But block chances are decreased in tier 0.5 and after that. So the %block you have added by this skill will be useless if you don't have another item giving you additional block.
Not sure I understand, can you elaborate?
Not sure about exact numbers, but when you enter tier 0.5 and tier 1 dungeons, your block chance is decreased by at least 20%. So if you want to be a 2 hander, having a percentage of block would be cool, but after you have leveled it would be useless, since you would have maybe 15% provided by the skill, and you substract 20%, so you don't have any block remaining.

I think Fusillade is a good skill for single targets, you can make it work with Fire and Spark and Strength/Focus build, but lack of AoE really hurts on lower levels. Possibly DPS could be increased a little bit as well, so at least there is some other option then Blast Cannoning everything :)
I heard somebody once who said that it could be effective if you combine the debuff of Blast Cannon and Fusillade. I have never tested it, being a huge fan of "Let's blast cannon everything" ;D

Quote
Even so, it won't be worth spending 15 points into it while you can get a "teleport-like" spell for cheap (onslaught). All that onslaught requires you is to have a line of sight, while it's harder to use Storm Burst to escape, you can be blocked easily.
What would you suggest, increase in secondary damage/number of bolts?
For this skill, I would see a complete rework, because I have no idea how to make it useful :P Maybe it could be useful if there was some debuff or CC in it.

OShee

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Re: Underpowered and underused Engineer skills in need of rework
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2015, 04:56:29 PM »
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That would be fine then :) kind of the same as fire shield for the embermage then ?
Exactly :>

Quote
Not sure about exact numbers, but when you enter tier 0.5 and tier 1 dungeons, your block chance is decreased by at least 20%. So if you want to be a 2 hander, having a percentage of block would be cool, but after you have leveled it would be useless, since you would have maybe 15% provided by the skill, and you substract 20%, so you don't have any block remaining.
Well, that sucks, I just found out it's 30% reduction in Darkness Falls. But, it could use some sort of parry effect (http://www.synergiesmod.com/patchNotes.php?v=645), with +2000% to armor when it procs on hit. Should work same as Blocking, just in different manner.

Miothan

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Re: Underpowered and underused Engineer skills in need of rework
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2015, 06:12:21 PM »
Quote
That would be fine then :) kind of the same as fire shield for the embermage then ?
Exactly :>

Quote
Not sure about exact numbers, but when you enter tier 0.5 and tier 1 dungeons, your block chance is decreased by at least 20%. So if you want to be a 2 hander, having a percentage of block would be cool, but after you have leveled it would be useless, since you would have maybe 15% provided by the skill, and you substract 20%, so you don't have any block remaining.
Well, that sucks, I just found out it's 30% reduction in Darkness Falls. But, it could use some sort of parry effect (http://www.synergiesmod.com/patchNotes.php?v=645), with +2000% to armor when it procs on hit. Should work same as Blocking, just in different manner.

You should really look around the forum for up-to-date information instead of digging up OLD information that is no longer relevant, you seem to have missed the perfect post for you as a new player(Which is even stickied for your convencience...); http://forums.synergiesmod.com/index.php?topic=5557.0

OT: Engineer is not a synergies class, it was clearly made to work with the limited content TL2 had, since Salan is working mostly on hes own we cant really expect Paladin, Embermage AND Engineer changes, i would rather see changes to the paladin and Embermage as soon as possible as they are both horrible right now, while the Engineer is decent in Darkness Falls, but i do agree that hes rather "meh", one big annoyance for me, has always been that there is nothing worth using charges on, other than the 65k shield.
What was once dead, can be made into servants of death and destruction. Feast on the innocent, slaughter the weak and punish those who would stand in your way!

downsay

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Re: Underpowered and underused Engineer skills in need of rework
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2015, 07:36:08 PM »
I could not agree more with the annoyance of the charges for engineer...

Miothan

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Re: Underpowered and underused Engineer skills in need of rework
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2015, 02:30:30 AM »
Aegis of Fate is actually a great passive ability, just depends on how you build your engineer, on my engineer which uses Residual Aftermath Set i get procs for up to 160k all absorb when the Parry buff is up, and without it i get a steady 22k all absorb. Proc chance is a bit low tho, not everyone plays facetank builds.

I play my Engineer as a facetanker tho, so i get the proc a lot when my Forcefield is down, and since i have the aftermath axes i rarely lose any hp at all unless its a big attack such as the lightning storm from Rak'var etc.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 02:34:37 AM by Miothan »
What was once dead, can be made into servants of death and destruction. Feast on the innocent, slaughter the weak and punish those who would stand in your way!

downsay

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Re: Underpowered and underused Engineer skills in need of rework
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2015, 06:03:52 AM »
Aegis of Fate is actually a great passive ability, just depends on how you build your engineer, on my engineer which uses Residual Aftermath Set i get procs for up to 160k all absorb when the Parry buff is up, and without it i get a steady 22k all absorb. Proc chance is a bit low tho, not everyone plays facetank builds.

I play my Engineer as a facetanker tho, so i get the proc a lot when my Forcefield is down, and since i have the aftermath axes i rarely lose any hp at all unless its a big attack such as the lightning storm from Rak'var etc.

Mind sharing your engineer build?

Thatmg7

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Re: Underpowered and underused Engineer skills in need of rework
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2015, 09:42:24 AM »
Bulwark

Wrong completely this is a good skill for my build, your changes make the skill suck.

Sword and Board:
yes this sucks

Aegis of Fate
A great skill and the reason why bulwark is good.

Forcefield is USELESS in this mod due to how often enemies hit you as there are more mobs and it costs charges that should be going to damage skills.

Aegis procs often due to how much you are hit in this mod. Unless you play lowpop.

Charge Reconstitution:

Again an amazing skill for my build. It basically a free health potion when you spam 5 charges using the Hammer skill.

Buffing the healing is a viable option.

its a good skill with my main offensive skill Flame Hammer.

Ember Hammer
got the wrong skill, this is basically useful for breaking shields an thats it

I do have 15 points in it for damage. Not that I use it that often

biggest complaint it the damage amp is basically worthless as it lasts a second.

Thu unsure if longer damage amp would be mega OP.

The other skills I haven't used so I dunno on them

You basically ragged on my exact build.


« Last Edit: February 26, 2015, 11:36:05 AM by Thatmg7 »